Does anyone still rush to Grenadiers like in the Vanilla/Warlords days? It seems to me that since they've been pushed back, and since the AI doesn't defend with just tons of rifles anymore, they're now less usefull. I rarely research Military Science now, since Rifling always seems the better option.
Grenadiers in BtS
- Thread starter dutchfire
- Start date
r_rolo1
King of myself
Well, grens + cannons still are a very viable way of taking a civ down. But yeah, definitely it is not the braindead choice as it was pre-BtS
Post Liberalism it seems that now you have to make a choice between concentrating on the top of the tech tree, for rifles (with cuirassiers, cavalry and jails for spies and drafting) or going for grenadiers and other techs in lower part of the tech tree (with galleons, frigates and cannons). The type of map is the main way I decide to go for one way or the other.
If there is a lot of water then getting the ships early is important. Cannons, grenadiers and drafted muskets can tackle anything up to infantry and artillery. You can afford to wait to double back for Rifling.
If the map is mostly land then drafted rifles plus a few rifles with CR3 upgraded from macemen, cavalry and cuirassiers can take out anything if supported by spies causing revolts. Otherwise it takes a long time to reduce the defences of castles with only trebuchets and catapults. Build jails to reduce WW and to generate EPs for the spy revolts.
If there is a lot of water then getting the ships early is important. Cannons, grenadiers and drafted muskets can tackle anything up to infantry and artillery. You can afford to wait to double back for Rifling.
If the map is mostly land then drafted rifles plus a few rifles with CR3 upgraded from macemen, cavalry and cuirassiers can take out anything if supported by spies causing revolts. Otherwise it takes a long time to reduce the defences of castles with only trebuchets and catapults. Build jails to reduce WW and to generate EPs for the spy revolts.
KingMorgan
Deity
In my games it seems the AI beelines Mil Science for the Grendiers or maybe the Adcas.
For me it's a dead end tech that is not essential, i'll trade for it unless i'm desperate.
For me it's a dead end tech that is not essential, i'll trade for it unless i'm desperate.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I rarely do since Military Science is deadend but every time I do tech it I say, "Damn, why don't I do this more"
Path's off liberalism
1) Rifleman path: PP (free)/banking/replaceable parts/rifling then nationalism/military tradition. 6 techs and riflemen/cavalry
2) Greander Path: Chemistry (free)/military science/steel then Steam Power/Railroad/Combustion. 6 techs for grenaders/cannons/superior navy.
The rifle path are cheaper techs I believe, unlock civics (Merc/Nationhood), and give hammers to windmills/watermills. It also moves you closer to other essential civics. The rifling path seams more like an economic path.
The Grenader path is more expensive but opens levees, improves worker speed, shows coal, and opens up railroads. It's more of a production route.
SO often you are looking at rifling/cavalry versus greanders/cannons short term, then research versus produciton.
One final point about my comparison above that not many mention, both have 1 deadend tech. Military Science AND Military Tradition are deadend techs.
DaveMcW
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2002
- Messages
- 6,489
Liberalism is also a dead-end tech...
r_rolo1
King of myself
No it isn't. You need Lib for Communism.
Hereditary Rule
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 294
Haven't tried grens since Warlords. After liberalism I can always get to rifling pretty fast so I just continue along that path rather than divert to grens. The AI doesn't use them either. Come to think of it, I haven't even seen a Gren since warlords. I miss their animation. 
There is the production aspect, but surely not the railroads and levees
you seem to be mixing up the tech tree a bit there 
Railroads requires Steam Power (also gives levees) but that requires Replaceable Parts which requires Banking... Once you've gone that far you may as well just research Rifling and forget the grenadiers.The production aspect I see is the combination of drydocks, Iron Works and military academies. The way I leverage that group of 3 techs is; research Chemistry for frigates and privateers, followed by Steel for cannons, drydocks and Iron Works, followed by Military Science. So that can make a swarm of powerful privateers that will get you plenty of GG (especially if Imperialistic) which you can invest in military academies to boost production (each GG is can be worth 20 hammers per turn or 6 times better than a GE
). At the same time I will have anticipated the cannons arriving by building some trebuchets as that is really effective upgrade (only costs 80 gold) and anticipated the grenadiers arriving with some macemen with CR promotions and some crossbows with CG promotions. All you need then is a nice fleet of galleons and the world is your oyster 
They are both useful military techs that can deliver the decisive edge if used properly in combination with a few other techs. Then the only thing that's dead at the end is the enemy
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
There is the production aspect, but surely not the railroads and levees
The production aspect I see is the combination of drydocks, Iron Works and military academies. The way I leverage that group of 3 techs is; research Chemistry for frigates and privateers, followed by Steel for cannons, drydocks and Iron Works, followed by Military Science. So that can make a swarm of powerful privateers that will get you plenty of GG (especially if Imperialistic) which you can invest in military academies to boost production (each GG is can be worth 20 hammers per turn or 6 times better than a GE
They are both useful military techs that can deliver the decisive edge if used properly in combination with a few other techs. Then the only thing that's dead at the end is the enemy
I stand corrected, thanks JJ. I forgot Steam Power also requires replaceable parts.
I almost always bee-line to steel (for cannons/ironworks), and generally follow that up with Military Science for Grens. They have such a long lifespan when bee-lined, since it's not until the Ai starts spamming Cavalry that they have a serious weakness, and it's not until infantry that they aren't great city raiders.
I usually put off rifling until I see cavalry, or until I have (or almost have) industrialization for infantry. That way I can build 5xp macemen, give them CR2 and then upgrade them to grens, which gives a constant stream of awesome city raiders.
After I get grens, I almost invariably bee-line railroads, for the mobility, but also for machine guns, which are fantastic defenders against even cavalry...
I usually put off rifling until I see cavalry, or until I have (or almost have) industrialization for infantry. That way I can build 5xp macemen, give them CR2 and then upgrade them to grens, which gives a constant stream of awesome city raiders.
After I get grens, I almost invariably bee-line railroads, for the mobility, but also for machine guns, which are fantastic defenders against even cavalry...
I beleive you also need rifling for artillery.
The beauty of grenadiers are frigates, cannons, and privateers. The latter is huge if you can get there before the AI can make galleons and still viable even afterwards. It is a wickedly easy way to peacefully generate GGs by parking a few privateers off some backward isle and letting them suicide caravels (or triremes =).
If you aren't going to use privateers, I prefer going for steel first then backfilling. This allows you to keep drafting (assuming you traded for it) at low pop costs or at least whipping/building at low cost that you can upgrade on the fly the grenadiers. If you delay rifling until after assembly line, you can churn out a new set of CRIII maces to promote into infantry.
I should confess though, of late I've been skipping both for a straight shot to railroad/infantry. I'm normally popping ~2 cannons per turn and it is FAR more important to get to railroad ASAP so I can keep hammering the AI before they get flank damage vs my cannons (note this is on normal speed so march times are of UTMOST importance) or I'm taking down a monster AI/alliance and I need the industrialization/SP/Mining boosts to keep building rates up.
The beauty of grenadiers are frigates, cannons, and privateers. The latter is huge if you can get there before the AI can make galleons and still viable even afterwards. It is a wickedly easy way to peacefully generate GGs by parking a few privateers off some backward isle and letting them suicide caravels (or triremes =).
If you aren't going to use privateers, I prefer going for steel first then backfilling. This allows you to keep drafting (assuming you traded for it) at low pop costs or at least whipping/building at low cost that you can upgrade on the fly the grenadiers. If you delay rifling until after assembly line, you can churn out a new set of CRIII maces to promote into infantry.
I should confess though, of late I've been skipping both for a straight shot to railroad/infantry. I'm normally popping ~2 cannons per turn and it is FAR more important to get to railroad ASAP so I can keep hammering the AI before they get flank damage vs my cannons (note this is on normal speed so march times are of UTMOST importance) or I'm taking down a monster AI/alliance and I need the industrialization/SP/Mining boosts to keep building rates up.
Grenadiers are great with philosophical leaders in my experience as you can easily lightbulb chemistry with 2 GSs. Two honourable mentions would be Alex as he's aggressive and well fit for a FE/SE war-game and Suleiman as you can draft the UU together with the grenadiers but I'm sure there are many other ways. Being imperialistic Suleiman will make opening up military academies worthwhile too.
It leads to communism(which is a deadend tech)...
I usually go for drafted Rifles + Trebs. A dozen trebs only need two turns to knock down a castle, and that time can be used for healing anyway. Once in a while I'll take the other path. For example, I had a recent game where I knew I had no shot at Liberalism, so I ignored Paper-Education and just beelined Steel via Guilds. Then fought with cannons + muskets + CR maces. I don't use many mounted units.
They are better if you are going to go all out war with your already high production and land area... it takes a bit less research than rifles, and you also get war academies (+50% unit production is nice) and ships of the line for naval dominance... along with the frigates with chemistry... and you are closer to cannons.
I think the riflemen line is better if you are aren't already dominant and are in line for hundreds of years of hard war (assembly line is the most powerful military tech).
I think the riflemen line is better if you are aren't already dominant and are in line for hundreds of years of hard war (assembly line is the most powerful military tech).
I don't know how you can call it a dead-end tech when it gives you a free tech, therefore opening up a new path. Dead-end techs give no more options. It is like it is a hybrid tech, research liberalism/nationalism, liberalism/printing press, liberalism/chemistry.
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
So is Monotheism.
Thats why most people skip that tech a large amount of the time...
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