Grigori : Brainstorm Thread

[Imuratep]

I think should use the Kong Miao graphic and be called "Hall of Tolerance" which adds the Immigration trait, (as well as +1 culture per trade route -> in the city its built in)

I think, in addition to immigrants from foreign population, the Immigration trait should add +1 culture for each town

The culture per trade route idea is fantastic. I just think that the culture bonus should be larger to enable an interessing way to win a cultural victory. Cultural victory should be a way to go for the Grigori and IMHO the game anyway has not enough mechanics that support this victory.
I don't know if culture per town is possible as a yield can just have or , but if it is I also consider it very cool.

 

[Tasunke]

perhaps +1 culture per trade route for every 10% culture, on top of a constant +2 culture per foreign trade route.

 

[methane]

The immigration is an interesting idea. Perhaps they always have immigration at a low level but the wonder boosts it. Another idea might be to make it a repeatable ritual that forces them to be doing something other than building units or buildings in their city.

Going back to the idea early in the thread of giving them non-militaristic ways to win that fit in with their flavor, I had a few thoughts:

1) Let them be able to research a civ-specific tech or techs (like the Lanun's starting tech, but they have to research it at some point) that replaces religious techs for them. Block them completely from getting/researching religious techs. This tech might provide a way to get the Altar of the Lunnotar, among other things (perhaps a civ specific victory condition?)

2) I was thinking of a unique building that replaced temples in a quest for a cultural victory (which most seem to think they should be good at, lore-wise). I also thought it should be used in many cities to be most effective, not just 3, since the Grigori seek to spread power.

My idea was a temple-like building that would boost culture depending on how many cities have them. The culture boost would reach its highest value at 6 cities in a small map, 9 normal, 12 cities for a large map. If you've reached that number of 'temples', then each 'temple' will boost its city's culture a full 120%. So for a small map, only having one gives the city a 20% boost, two gives each of those cities a 40% boost, three a 60% boost, etc. In a large map, you'll only see a 10% boost with your first 'temple', but each additional one built will rise that value by 10%, up to 120% for 12 'temples'.

You might also add some small bonuses with each of these buildings (maintenance reduction?), but offset it with a penalty to troop production or to troop upkeep, to represent a society focusing on a peaceful path. The civilization would be making a strong attempt at a peaceful victory, but find itself less able to have stacks of units for defense, relying on adventurers for defense.

 

[Tasunke]

I would advise that such a temple should have -20% maintanence, -10% military unit construction, +20% adventerur gpp growth.

as well as the culture schema you suggested.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I imagine the Grigori alternative to a temple would be close to the Roman/Greek forums, the social (and buisness) gathering places where people often came to talk to eachother. In this case, where the schools of Grigori philosophy come and debate with and to the public. I think Civ 4 had graphics for it as well.

I don't see the need for a military penalty, though; nothing about philosophy as a whole makes inclined one way or another because it, like religion, can be used to persuade people one way or another. Lore-wise, the Grigori Dragon Slayers are outright stated to be the products of Grigori philosophy, as devoted (fanatical?) for their country as most others are for their gods, so at the very least they should be an exempt/benefit from any military modification going on.


How does this sound:

Grigori Forum. 200 hammers. Available at Philosophy. +5 culture, can train bard*, +2 Adventurer GPP, X% increase in culture depending on number of Forums in empire (map specific) for a maximum of 120%. -15% military production, +30% Dragon Slayer Production.

Made it a rather expensive building, the same as a money changer. So it's a decision you have to make, since a net 15% increase in Dragon Slayer probably isn't worth it unless your goal is cultural.

*If we ever think about adding a Grigori-only specialist Philosopher which adds to Adventurer GPP, then of course a Forum would allow at least 2.

 

[methane]

I imagine the Grigori alternative to a temple would be close to the Roman/Greek forums, the social (and buisness) gathering places where people often came to talk to eachother. In this case, where the schools of Grigori philosophy come and debate with and to the public. I think Civ 4 had graphics for it as well.

I believe the Romans UB is a forum.

I don't see the need for a military penalty, though; nothing about philosophy as a whole makes inclined one way or another because it, like religion, can be used to persuade people one way or another. Lore-wise, the Grigori Dragon Slayers are outright stated to be the products of Grigori philosophy, as devoted (fanatical?) for their country as most others are for their gods, so at the very least they should be an exempt/benefit from any military modification going on.


How does this sound:

Grigori Forum. 200 hammers. Available at Philosophy. +5 culture, can train bard*, +2 Adventurer GPP, X% increase in culture depending on number of Forums in empire (map specific) for a maximum of 120%. -15% military production, +30% Dragon Slayer Production.

Made it a rather expensive building, the same as a money changer. So it's a decision you have to make, since a net 15% increase in Dragon Slayer probably isn't worth it unless your goal is cultural.

*If we ever think about adding a Grigori-only specialist Philosopher which adds to Adventurer GPP, then of course a Forum would allow at least 2.

That sounds like an interesting value to start playtesting. I was thinking it might cost even more hammers, the hammer cost of 3 temples. The value of culture for hammers is quite low for your first few, but once you're halfway to the maximum, each building gives the culture value of 3 temples (after that, it becomes an even better value). If you make the cost high enough, the military production modifier isn't impotant, since building these things in lots of cities means foresaking a lot of potential military production.

Another similar idea I had that might be harder to implement (I've not done any real modding) would be to alter the cultural victory condition for the Grigori so that they need to have more than 3 cities reach legendary culture for the cultural win (6, 9, or 12 depending on map size). Then, instead of the above building, have several different culture boosting buildings and effects for the Grigori. A Grigori player following a builders path would become a cultural powerhouse; border cities would peacefully 'flip' as they decide to join the Grigori cause. Of course, this would aggravate other civs who would look to war.

Perhaps in this case some of the buildings could increase their culture output (or effects) the longer they've been built, to emphasize building early for a cultural victory, rather than militarily rushing a large empire before switching over.

Balancing it would be hard, however.

 

[Tasunke]

This isnt supposed to be balanced for the satus quo to give the grigori an alternative, we are trying to give them bonuses for a culture victory. I think the stated cost is high enough.

It would also be nice to have some sort of mechanic to discourage militia but encourage adventurers. I would propose a Militia unit of sorts, that can be recruited for cheap, like 10 gold, but costs 2 gold per turn, and cannot leave borders. Perhaps if it needs to be limited, have it reduce the pop by 1 but NO draft anger or hurry anger. An alternative would be to disallow militia from using metal weapon promos.

I imagine the Grigori army to be much like Colonial 1760s and 1770s ... only without the presence of the British army for the most part. Mainly relying on adventurers to rally a militia in times of need, and going it alone at other times, or in small groups.

 

[Opera]

I think you should start by tweaking regular buildings' culture rates. Wonders are especially useful at getting culture but many aren't outputting any. Religion is good too but that's out of bounds for the Grigori.

Create UBs for them which boost culture output (both raw and modifiers). You aren't limited to 1 building with enormous influence like the idea above.

 

[Tasunke]

true enough. More UBs is probably better than new forums and wonders.

Regardless, I think the immigration mechanic should be in, even if its a simple movement of population, although I would like for it to be culture based some how. Agrarianism is probably Cassiel's second favorite civic, next to philosophy. They are a farm nation, although not really a specialist nation by any means. There fore I would strongly suggest for many of these UBs to be able to house a philosopher specialist, which increases adventurer GPP.

Another possibility would be a special building, which slightly lessens the yields of great people, although makes it impossible for anything but an adventurer to be created. Maybe instead it should lessen the yields of regular specialists? like -1 science, -1 gold, -1 culture, or -1 hammers. It would hurt someone using and abusing a specialist economy, but for people desperate for adventurers- i'm sure they are just in it for the GPP points for more heroes.

 

[Opera]

Yeah, for that matter, I think FF+/Orbis system of spawning is better than actual GPP spawning. But the buildings you mention still could increase the rate.

I know I'm going to add a Cross-Roads Inn (Tavern UB) for them, mostly for the Ardor spell but also to increase culture and gold.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I believe the Romans UB is a forum.




That sounds like an interesting value to start playtesting. I was thinking it might cost even more hammers, the hammer cost of 3 temples. The value of culture for hammers is quite low for your first few, but once you're halfway to the maximum, each building gives the culture value of 3 temples (after that, it becomes an even better value). If you make the cost high enough, the military production modifier isn't impotant, since building these things in lots of cities means foresaking a lot of potential military production.

Another similar idea I had that might be harder to implement (I've not done any real modding) would be to alter the cultural victory condition for the Grigori so that they need to have more than 3 cities reach legendary culture for the cultural win (6, 9, or 12 depending on map size). Then, instead of the above building, have several different culture boosting buildings and effects for the Grigori. A Grigori player following a builders path would become a cultural powerhouse; border cities would peacefully 'flip' as they decide to join the Grigori cause. Of course, this would aggravate other civs who would look to war.

Perhaps in this case some of the buildings could increase their culture output (or effects) the longer they've been built, to emphasize building early for a cultural victory, rather than militarily rushing a large empire before switching over.

Balancing it would be hard, however.

I thought about making the hammer value as expensive as three or more temples, but it occured to me that you're already investing more hammers than three temples for your victory cities. You're investing 200 hammers for a single forum, yes, but you may be doing that in 10 cities, which is a total of 2000 hammers for the effect of just three temples in the only three cities that matter. A single temple of any type costs 120, which means three temples in your three victory cities would only cost 3*3*120 = 1080 hammers. Already you're paying nearly twice the hammers empire-wide for the same benefit, and 200 hammers is no small amount for your less-productive cities to cough up, whereas you can pick and choose your culture cities to get good production/food balance. If each Forum cost the amount of 3 temples, that would be 360*10=3600 hammers empire-wide for the effect of just three temples, a factor of 3 for the same benefit in the only cities that matter. Add in the fact that the Grigori are still unable to get any extra temples, and I think it's risky to do it any more.

To be honest, unless culture-trade routes pans out (ideally unique to the Grigori), it might need to be stronger. Anyone can research all the religions easily enough, if they work towards it.

This isnt supposed to be balanced for the satus quo to give the grigori an alternative, we are trying to give them bonuses for a culture victory. I think the stated cost is high enough.

It would also be nice to have some sort of mechanic to discourage militia but encourage adventurers. I would propose a Militia unit of sorts, that can be recruited for cheap, like 10 gold, but costs 2 gold per turn, and cannot leave borders. Perhaps if it needs to be limited, have it reduce the pop by 1 but NO draft anger or hurry anger. An alternative would be to disallow militia from using metal weapon promos.

I imagine the Grigori army to be much like Colonial 1760s and 1770s ... only without the presence of the British army for the most part. Mainly relying on adventurers to rally a militia in times of need, and going it alone at other times, or in small groups.

MagisterCultuums militia-desertion event might work well if it was tied strictly to a Grigori-only Militia unit. Have militia units be not-quite-as-strong but much cheaper in cultural boundaries than their comparative normal equivalents. If they go outside their boundaries, though, they become significantly more expensive and open to MC's event.

A problem might be how to implement it as opposed to regular units, without making it impossible to expand early even in cases in which a lone adventurer isn't enough, and a militia-warrior would be unreliable.

Thought: How about Militia replace tier two units like swordsmen and archers? Capable of being built even without a training yard/archery range (though much faster/somewhat stronger if one is present), militia start with a Weak promotion that goes away after X battles (possibly changed by if there was a construction building or not). You can likely pump out enough to defend your territory where they're still cheap, but it's liable to be too expensive to construct the sort of stack of doom to attack your neighbors, since they'd have to be even larger with even higher costs.

Tier-3 units and above (Longbowmen, Dragon Slayers, etc.) don't suffer the militia weakness, being better trained, motivated, and disciplined to not suffer such bouts of homesickness. Militia could also be promoted, of course.

Units that shouldn't suffer militia woes would include Recon units (they know/sign up to go exploring), horse riders (specialists who require more training/dedication than peasant militia), and mages (a different breed altogether).



Alternatively, a Grigori-only promotion/promotion line for units similar to above. The auto-gained 'Militia' promotion acts like a Weak promotion and covers the militia cost increase, as well as serving as the tag to verify whether MC's milita event occurs or not. Ideally the militia promotion would go away/improve with enough battles, as a village militia matures into a peer fighting force.

You might even make it a promotion line, like with the Giant Kin promotions. Raw Militia->Seasoned Militia->Veteran Militia->Elite/Legendary Militia. Raw and seasoned are still weaker and more expensive and a veteran is roughly equivalent (maybe marginally stronger), while an Elite Militia is a reward for shepherding such a unit for so long. Possibly get some special promotion, or a re-usable Recruit ability that makes more militia, because they're just that inspiring.

Thoughts?

Another possibility would be a special building, which slightly lessens the yields of great people, although makes it impossible for anything but an adventurer to be created. Maybe instead it should lessen the yields of regular specialists? like -1 science, -1 gold, -1 culture, or -1 hammers. It would hurt someone using and abusing a specialist economy, but for people desperate for adventurers- i'm sure they are just in it for the GPP points for more heroes.

I don't like. You'd need some serious tradeoff to harming specialists like that; I don't know about you, but I don't just use Engineers for wonders, but to boost production in a poor city. I treasure sages to extend my lead in the tech race. Bards are sometimes critical for opening my borders/competing with other neighbor's culture.

The Cassiel anti-specialist argument has always seemed weak in my mind: Cassiel's ideals are admitted to be regularly disappointed by his subjects, and concentration and specialization have always been the result of more liberal/open-opportunity societies that he leads. He might dislike it personally, but the Grigori themselves would certainly welcome their ability to advance themselves via their strengths.

Like I said, it would need a serious trade off to be justified. If you're interested more in increasing the number of adventurers coming out, the better option would probably be increase the number of ways to get Adventurer GPP (like the Philosopher specialist, more UB), rather than decrease the output of other specialists.

 

[Tasunke]

hehe, everytime I hear someone say that DragonSlayers should never suffer any penalties, or that DragonSlayers should get production bonuses, I think of FFG's massive stack of DragonSlayers, soon to have mithril XD ....

But that is far outside the point. Even so, it expresses how a good economy is most important in Civ, and a few adventurers are just icing. Of course, in order to make the Grigori more Grigori-esque, it would seem we would need an altered approach. I don't have anything against a giant stack of dragonslayers, but I am trying to think of how, say, a group of adventurers could be able to fight off an invading stack of Firebows, without crippling their economy in the process.

I can also see the Grigori as a Costa Rica, without a standing army, but can rally onto a somewhat trained defense force. I think ... just maybe, a Grigori adventurer should be able to cast a spell, that takes 5 turns (changeable) to cast, which trains a unit for 10 exp ... or half his exp ... or a quarter his exp. Not sure how to do that, except to make an adventurer unit without the hero promotion to instead gain that amount of experience points. If their is some good minion code, maybe the hero can only recruit 5 such followers (if its half his exp, for instance) .... however, if a grigi city is LOST, the hero gains a new spell which does practically the same thing, only instantly, and ignoring the follower limit. This spell could only be used once per city falling, not once per hero, so it should need a check maybe ... for if its been casted already, or something. Like there could be an integer or an array w/e, that holds the number (Or maybe even a boolean). A boolean would be a good idea, except for the situations where more than one city is taken in one turn. So anyways, if that number is greater than 0 ... which usually represents "1" but since its our placeholder, it actually does represent 0 for once XD ... so anyways, if greater than zero, a hero can use the spell. Each time a hero uses the spell, the number is reduced by one.

Also, perhaps, for a separate yet very similar integer to keep up with the numbers being razed ... for those adventurers to also use the recruit spell. However this would be an integer for every hero, as each hero should be able to recruit for each city. However, I propose barbs taking over a city should not count towards this recruiting integer.

As for the building I proposed (which would only be built in an adventurer farm anyways) could also .... raise GPP production by 50% or more. I think that might be able to solve for that ONE city you are using with crippled specialists (if any) to get a steady supply of adventurers.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

hehe, everytime I hear someone say that DragonSlayers should never suffer any penalties, or that DragonSlayers should get production bonuses, I think of FFG's massive stack of DragonSlayers, soon to have mithril XD ....

But that is far outside the point. Even so, it expresses how a good economy is most important in Civ, and a few adventurers are just icing. Of course, in order to make the Grigori more Grigori-esque, it would seem we would need an altered approach. I don't have anything against a giant stack of dragonslayers, but I am trying to think of how, say, a group of adventurers could be able to fight off an invading stack of Firebows, without crippling their economy in the process.

I'm not sure what your issue is, because so long as militia don't have increased costs inside their cultural borders (or even reduced costs inside), you don't need Adventurers to fight off invading enemies. That's what the militia are for. The greatly increased cost and desertion risk would occur when militia are sent abroad, which would require to sacrifice a good output of your economy for an underpowered army rather than focus at home at building infrastructure/research to get to your more advanced units. The militia mechanic, after all, is a means to defer most warmongering until later.

Dragon Slayers and similar level units aren't common men who can be drawn together in a ramshackle men, they are dedicated and highly trained units. The very focus of a Dragon Slayer, to slay the few dragons there are, requires them to be in stacks already. There's no reason in my mind why, once you get to that point, you shouldn't be able to build stacks of Dragon Slayers without militia costs.

I can also see the Grigori as a Costa Rica, without a standing army, but can rally onto a somewhat trained defense force. I think ... just maybe, a Grigori adventurer should be able to cast a spell, that takes 5 turns (changeable) to cast, which trains a unit for 10 exp ... or half his exp ... or a quarter his exp. Not sure how to do that, except to make an adventurer unit without the hero promotion to instead gain that amount of experience points. If their is some good minion code, maybe the hero can only recruit 5 such followers (if its half his exp, for instance) .... however, if a grigi city is LOST, the hero gains a new spell which does practically the same thing, only instantly, and ignoring the follower limit. This spell could only be used once per city falling, not once per hero, so it should need a check maybe ... for if its been casted already, or something. Like there could be an integer or an array w/e, that holds the number (Or maybe even a boolean). A boolean would be a good idea, except for the situations where more than one city is taken in one turn. So anyways, if that number is greater than 0 ... which usually represents "1" but since its our placeholder, it actually does represent 0 for once XD ... so anyways, if greater than zero, a hero can use the spell. Each time a hero uses the spell, the number is reduced by one.

Also, perhaps, for a separate yet very similar integer to keep up with the numbers being razed ... for those adventurers to also use the recruit spell. However this would be an integer for every hero, as each hero should be able to recruit for each city. However, I propose barbs taking over a city should not count towards this recruiting integer.

That sounds far too byzantine to be viable, and is a mis-managed metaphor to begin with. For one thing, Costa Rica doesn't have a military/militia period. Only a police force. For another, it was only possible because Costa Rica has extensive security guarantees with the United States, who could guarantee security in what was already a non-threatening neighborhood. FFH doesn't have the friendly neighborhood that Costa Rica has, and the Grigori don't have a superpower in their pocket to stop all potential invaders. (They would if Cassiel did anything, but...)

The Grigori don't need more war mechanics. The Adventurer system already does plenty, and a weak-but-cheap militia mechanic for tier-two units means that a defensive war isn't that hard either. The Grigori need more avenues for just about everything else.




On second look, your building idea sounds better. For some reason I thought you were talking about making it some sort of civ-wide effect, which would be a pain.

 

[Imuratep]

I think you should start by tweaking regular buildings' culture rates. Wonders are especially useful at getting culture but many aren't outputting any. Religion is good too but that's out of bounds for the Grigori.

Create UBs for them which boost culture output (both raw and modifiers). You aren't limited to 1 building with enormous influence like the idea above.

I also think the cultural boosts should be distributed over the whole tech tree as this encourages strategical decisions. I could imagíne something like this:

Museum: +5% per city +10% 1 bard slot

Grigori Artisan's Workshop: +5% per city +15% -15% military production 1 engineer slot 1 bard slot

Grigori Theatre: +10% per city etc.

Grigori Tavern: +20% per city etc.

@Opera: How do you change what a trade route generates? You introduced the trader trait that grants you a certain percentage of and per trade route, didn't you? Is it possible at all to grant culture with trade routes? The ressources gain are all yield income, aren't they?

 

[Opera]

I also think the cultural boosts should be distributed over the whole tech tree as this encourages strategical decisions. I could imagíne something like this:

Museum: +5% per city +10% 1 bard slot

Grigori Artisan's Workshop: +5% per city +15% -15% military production 1 engineer slot 1 bard slot

Grigori Theatre: +10% per city etc.

Grigori Tavern: +20% per city etc.

That's how I would do it. But beware not to add to many modifiers and too few raw output. Remember that most raw output currently comes only from religions, wonders and a few buildings (monument, theatre).

As of now, I've added a Walking School (you know, those Peripatetic thingies of Aristotle? ) that replaces the Academy and is buildable normally. Gives +1, +3, +25 and . I plan on renaming it though.

I'll add a Cross-Roads Inn that increase trade routes and income. Maybe culture too.

Your idea for the theatre isn't good, because you removed the +3 from the base building.

@Opera: How do you change what a trade route generates? You introduced the trader trait that grants you a certain percentage of and per trade route, didn't you? Is it possible at all to grant culture with trade routes? The ressources gain are all yield income, aren't they?

Currently, there's only two ways to change trade routes income: Traits and Civics. And yes, currently, only yields are available, not commerces.

 

[Imuratep]

That's how I would do it. But beware not to add to many modifiers and too few raw output. Remember that most raw output currently comes only from religions, wonders and a few buildings (monument, theatre).

Right probably the buildings should add some base culture
Museum: +5% per city +10% +2 1 bard slot

Grigori Artisan's Workshop: +5% per city +2 +15% -15% military production 1 engineer slot 1 bard slot

Grigori Theatre: +10% per city +6 etc.

Grigori Tavern: +20% per city +8 etc.

Grigori Monument 90 +7 (as with the monument event)

Your idea for the theatre isn't good, because you removed the +3 from the base building.

I didn't want to remove the raw culture bonus from the theatre. I wrote etc. to signify that I'd let the rest of the building as it is.

Currently, there's only two ways to change trade routes income: Traits and Civics. And yes, currently, only yields are available, not commerces.

Which file do I have to change to enable commerce income for trade routes?

 

[Opera]

Grigori Monument 90 +7 (as with the monument event)

Perhaps not, since you could still have the monument event.

Which file do I have to change to enable commerce income for trade routes?

You can't do that without editing the DLL. But trade routes aren't meant to increase commerces since commerces come from the "commerce" yield.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Do we need a Grigori Theater? A theater itself is already pretty powerful as a cultural output.

 

[Opera]

Not so much, considering the lack of cultural output of wonders. Many wonders haven't any cultural output of a very low one. If you want more culture, give the Grigori more culture.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

If we've already considered adding Immigration via wonder, maybe Creative as well?

The Hall of Kings, IIRC, is the one which gives culture per specialist and is cited as Cassiel's favorite wonder. Perhaps an event with 100% chance of occuring after the Grigori build the Hall of Kings could add the creative trait? (I suggest an event similar to the Republic elections so that the Hall of Kings itself doesn't have to be edited.) Since if you build it you're already pursuing a culture victory...