Growing while chopping settler (small tip)

[BlueRenner]

Heh. With that attitude, I don't want to see you anywhere near my CounterStrike game.

Play the game. Don't play the engine.

- Bill

 

[Juardis]

From GlobalDefines.xml :

The modifier BUILDING_PRODUCTION_DECAY_TIME has a value of 50, probably meaning that building production starts decaying after 50 turns.
The modifier BUILDING_PRODUCTION_DECAY_PERCENT has a value of 99, probably meaning that building production decays at 1% per turn.
The modifier UNIT_PRODUCTION_DECAY_TIME has a value of 10, probably meaning that unit production starts decaying after 10 turns.
The modifier UNIT_PRODUCTION_DECAY_PERCENT has a value of 98, probably meaning that unit production decays at 2% per turn.

I don't know if the decay rate is taken from total production cost of the building/unit or from already invested hammers. But that could be tested easily if someone wants to know.

I also don't know if these modifiers are adjusted at the different speed settings (epic, normal, etc.).

While I don't know for sure what decay_time and decay_percent mean with respect to CIV IV, in the nuclear industry decay is usually an exponential. Half-life refers to the time it takes to reduce an initial concentration to half its value. It never reaches zero, but after a period of time it gets so small that it might as well be zero. So in terms of CIV IV, I would say decay_time refers to the number of turns it takes to reach 0 and it approaches 0 exponentially. For example, if you have 100 gold invested in a building, it would be 0 gold at the end of 50 turns. And it would decrease exponentially (which is what I guess the decay_rate term is for). But that's in the nuclear industry, not sure what it means here.

 

[Roland Johansen]

While I don't know for sure what decay_time and decay_percent mean with respect to CIV IV, in the nuclear industry decay is usually an exponential. Half-life refers to the time it takes to reduce an initial concentration to half its value. It never reaches zero, but after a period of time it gets so small that it might as well be zero. So in terms of CIV IV, I would say decay_time refers to the number of turns it takes to reach 0 and it approaches 0 exponentially. For example, if you have 100 gold invested in a building, it would be 0 gold at the end of 50 turns. And it would decrease exponentially (which is what I guess the decay_rate term is for). But that's in the nuclear industry, not sure what it means here.

I agree that decay is normally an exponential process in science. But, that's not true in civ4. You can see that by deselecting an expensive building which is half finished from the building queue and reselecting it after 5 turns. There will be no loss of hammers invested in the building. The decay starts after the number of turns listed in decay time and then starts to decay at the rate mentioned in decay percent. I don't know if the actual decay is an exponential process (percentage loss from already invested hammers) or a linear process (percentage loss from the total building cost).

 

[Uncle_Joe]

To me, its probably an exploit because of the micromanage involved. The whole idea for Civ4 was to remove a lot of the little quirky tricks that gave people who micro-managed such an advantage.

If you have to time the chops, and switch production twice, and hit certain combos of hot keys to force the timing, I'd say that pretty clearly falls under the category of things they appeared to be trying to eliminate in the game. The goal is to have the players focus on the strategy of what to build, where to build, what to research, where to expand etc. I dont believe part of the goal is to give an advantage to players willing to spend the micro each turn to time worker chops and pre-chop and switch production around to coincide with the chops.

That said, its in the game now and if it is not intended, then it should be removed. Personally I'd like to see chopping in general reigned in a bit, but I've learned to live with it. Jumping through hoops to gain a little extra growth here and there is not something I want to mess with and certainly not something I want my opponent wasting time with in any MP game!

 

[FriscoDanconia]

This trick reminds me very much of another trick from MS-DOS CIV: all settlers (no workes then) could complete their tasks in one single turn doing this:
1-with settler selected press key (v.g. "R" for road).
2-click on any other unit (other than settler)
3-activate first settler with click and press key again.
4-repeat until task is finished.

I remember in thos early days a friend of mine argued that this represented that military units protected and lent their aid to settlers working on public works.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I remember in thos early days a friend of mine argued that this represented that military units protected and lent their aid to settlers working on public works.

It's sometimes funny to read about the strange arguments that are used to defend an exploit or a unbalanced factor in a game, but this is really nuts.

 

[Memphus]

Can't believe no one else referenced:
299 posts about this chop/switch
This has already been very deeply discussed
and it is not an exploit as far as the GOTM is concerned
Ainwood's reason's

to sum it up all that happens is you swap hammers for food

However kudos on finding that you can execute it by cancellign the command the turn before, this will help my stress factor

 

[Uncle_Joe]

to sum it up all that happens is you swap hammers for food

So basically you are saying that it conveys no advantage. Is that correct? If so, then it cant really be an 'exploit'.

So, is it a wash to build Settlers/Workers this way vs building them the 'normal' way?

Thanks!

 

[Willburn]

Two comments. That 299 post article was based on this post, and you should remember this Memphus... Look at the dates for the two different posts and see who was first.

Second comment is this is usefull in some circumstances. I also use this for chopping on a wonder on several sources (different cities) the same turn. This way i can get like 200-600 gold from a wonder when i finish it. = I run 100% science for a loooong time..

When is this usefull ? If you have high resource tiles near your city it might be better to grow while producing the settler so you can use those high yield tiles faster. (Goldmine,gems.. cows..etc) Or you might want to get a size 4 city so you can support one more millitary unit etc etc.. there are lots of uses.. (ofcourse some of them are riddiclous hardcore micromanagment hehe..but thats the way i like it

 

[icecool]

Interesting - I'll be trying this next game.

Cheers, Ice

 

[Memphus]

Two comments. That 299 post article was based on this post, and you should remember this Memphus... Look at the dates for the two different posts and see who was first.

I know, I never said the other post came before, just that thsi topic had been discussed to greater lengths there for anyone else interested, so the same discussions don't get rehashed here , I would never try to take anything away from your original post, as it was referenced in the other thread.

Second comment is this is usefull in some circumstances. I also use this for chopping on a wonder on several sources (different cities) the same turn. This way i can get like 200-600 gold from a wonder when i finish it. = I run 100% science for a loooong time...

I know I use it every game for different reasons, but the end result of the production swapping is on turn X you gained Y food for Y hammers. And in the early game that extra growth is vital in msot circumstances.

As for getting the gold from wonders, I was unware of this ability to produce a wonder in more than one city at the same time, thus being able to have it cancelled and gain money the turn you complete it, this tactic to me seems to go against the initial design intention. I will look into this further...

 

[Charles 22]

One sort of side caveat to all of this, is the not too instinctual fact that you can chop for cities beyond the fat cross. I don't do it all that much, but in some cases, as doubtlessly many of us have seen, the chop will credit the city even in what's then neutral territory.

Considering all of that, I have one basic question, and it could revolutionize this game is so, and that is this. Suppose the game has just started, or fairly early on into the game in any case, and you decide to send your worker some 4 hexes beyond your fat cross. If there are no other cities closer, will your city get credit for the chop? I don't think I've ever tried it. It would work pretty well and really get chopping to a frenzy if it does. If nothing else it would be good to chop in neutral territories where you're not going to place future cities.

The reason I thought of this, was I went what must had been at least four of five hexes beyond the city hex, and chopped, and it gave credit to my nearest city. It was in that city's cultural reach, but it was a mere two hexes away from a city was cultural reach was the city itself (it was a former barb hangout). Now I suppose the main questions are these: If it's in neutral territory will it go to your closest city irrespective the proximity to other civ cities? Or must neutral chops be within the fat cross (understanding that neutral territory chops that will later be fat cross, will work)?

I must say I was a bit surprised that something though in the cultural territory, outside the fat cross, would count. I guess the fact that you can't mine in neutral territory throws you off.

Answers? I'm at work right now, so I have no way to test this.

 

[aviator99_uk]

The hammers received drops (linearly?) the further the forest is from the receiving city. 8 tiles seems to be a limit where hammers received = 0

 

[cabert]

I know I use it every game for different reasons, but the end result of the production swapping is on turn X you gained Y food for Y hammers. And in the early game that extra growth is vital in msot circumstances.

Exactly right!
That's why it isn't an exploit at all, just a (tiresome) way to focus on developpement rather than on production.

Let's see an example where you would NOTbe smart using this method:
You've got a size 2 city. 2 great food bonuses. All the rest of the hexes are waste (mountains, deserts,...).
if you chop (outside the fat cross!) to make in the same time say a settler and a warrior, you will grow to size 3, and have a "citizen", losing every interest in the food bonus, get unhappiness and unhealthiness for just 1 hammer/turn .
If you use the bonus food to increase your settler production speed, you'll have a settler earlier, and still have the opportunity to chop to finish it and get the warrior in the next turn. Leaving earlier (how much food does it take from size 2 to size 3? = Y food, used as Y hammers for the settler) with a size 2 city, a settler, a warrior and 2 forests to chop later.

of course, it's rather unusual to build a city where only 2 hexes are useful, and usually the chop and grow method is the best solution you can think of : growing and building simultaneously the settler and his escort.

 

[Charles 22]

The hammers received drops (linearly?) the further the forest is from the receiving city. 8 tiles seems to be a limit where hammers received = 0

Good to know. Naturally, if you have the time and resources, should you find neutral lands that you won't possibly be interested the strategy of denying other civs chops could play in there too.

 

[5cats]

If there's a place I want to plunk a city, and it's forested, I'll go chop it first regardless of which city gets how much.
Other than that, it's good to know the chopping can be "saved" for later. I'd noticed this in-game, but never bothered to "exploit" it... that's a lot of micro-management, eh?

 

[Willburn]

Oh btw i figured out that growing while chopping is awesome with slavery.. your even EARNING hammers on it.. A city with graneries can grow in 1-5 turns in size.. a whip gives you 30 hammers.. if you micro and only build settler with forrest and then whip the last 19 hammers (there is currently a bug that if you whip with 20 hammers left you loose 2 pop instead of 1) your making very fast settlers and earning hammers on it too. (and growing)

 

[Calavente]

Hi,
may I am stupid but how do you switch queud prod without loosing already amassed prod ..
if I choose somthg new to build (say settler), it goes before the former thing build (say barrack), but how to switch back to the barrack without deleting the settler production ?

Thx

EDIT : ok, question already answered
furthermore, it is not an exploit, as using all food to boost prod is not a drawback but very balanced : 50% bonus, 50% malus...depending on the situation
(you are considering that it is an exploit because this food contribution is suppodely something to avoid)
in the FfH 1 mode Kael has made a civic "conquest" that makes that all units are made with both hammers and food : it is not a drawback : you can manage the city's growth rate, and you can build units even in low production cities.
it is also true in vanilla civ : if your city has lot of floodplain, rice, corn .. but NO hammers , how will you built your 1st settler/worker ? ==> here comes the usefullness of having settlers and workers build from food.

If someone want to play the trick, it is worth his pain, as forests are long term ressources for happiness (civic ecolo) and this is doomed if forests are chopped.

 

[cabert]

you delete, then add it back (nothing lost)

 

[Andrei_V]

The chops are complete after all other units have made their moves. If you have a unit (like the warrior defending your city) active, switch to Settler before pressing space. At the end of turn, when the chops are done, switch back to produce something else.

I don't think it's an exploit. You don't make any extra hammers or something, and if the food is spent on growth, it is not spent on hammers for the settler at the same time, i.e. you need a lot more hammers from chops to complete your settler.