Guerilla

[WarKirby]

Something I've found a little odd.

The Woodsman promotion boosts general forest strength, not just defence. It boosts attack power in forests by enough to nullify the defense bonus, +5%, giving a minor advantage. This is something I love, and one of the reasons why I use woodsman so much

I find it odd then, that Guerilla doesn't do the same. It gives a higher bonus than woodsman, but it only applies on the defense. Why is this?

I think it would make sense for Guerilla to give at least a 25% attack bonus in hills too, so that it could reasonably be used to attack hilltop positions. It can be thought of as the unit wearing rough spiked boots for traction, learning how to handle their weight to move most efficiently up an incline, practising careful movements to avoid losing footing. etc.

What does everyone think?

 

[xienwolf]

I think the reasoning from Firaxis on that was that if you attack INTO a forest, but you can navigate the trees better than the poor saps inside, it works in your favor. But if you attack UP a hill, no matter how much better than the opponent you are at multi-level combat, the guy on top has the advantage.

 

[TimSLS]

I also like the promotions not being entirely symmetrical. Besides, I already tend to get more use out of the guarrilla promotion, as I tend to found cities on hills for the defensive benefits, and 40% is a very attractice bonus.

 

[odalrick]

I think the reasoning from Firaxis on that was that if you attack INTO a forest, but you can navigate the trees better than the poor saps inside, it works in your favor. But if you attack UP a hill, no matter how much better than the opponent you are at multi-level combat, the guy on top has the advantage.

Actually, the attack bonus is pure FFH. Base civ and the expansions only had a defensive benefit and double movement.

 

[WarKirby]

Actually, the attack bonus is pure FFH. Base civ and the expansions only had a defensive benefit and double movement.

Yes, I was about to say this. The attack bonus was only added by FFH. I don't think it makes sense that a similar attack bonus wasn't added to guerilla, too

 

[MaxAstro]

I think it makes sense to have Guerrilla be defensive only. However, I would like to see a promotion - possibly a mounted-only one called something like "Charge" - that gives a bonus to hills attack.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I agree that guerrilla should give both attack and defense bonuses to be on par with woodsman.

 

[Iceciro]

I don't think everything needs to be on par with anything else.

and I like Xienwolf's reasoning - as another note, remember, you can create and destroy forests - having a hill tile is forever. Also, a guerilla mob would get what is essentially a city attack BONUS for attacking a hilled citiy? No thanks.

 

[WarKirby]

I can see the point that being on a hill shoult always be an advantage, so how about a lesser bonus like 15% attack. Or 20% to make it an on-par choice with combat I. Not enough to completely negate the hill defence, but enough to reduce the defender's advantage somewhat.

Iceiro, I'm not sure where you're going with that city attack thing. You can already get a city attack bonus. It's called City Raider. It gives 30%, which is more than anything else mentioned in this thread. And there's also the general combat bonuses, which also count in city fighting. I don't think that argument holds weight.

 

[zup]

But unless there is some major hill attack bonus, you'll need some godly units to take the guerilla 2 beastmasters camping hills. Even if they only have the 5 xp minimum. Fodder is not an option...or it is an option but not one I am going to use. Unless you change it so that a city with 1000 production can build 40 warriors/turn.

 

[Sephi]

1. If he is in a city, destroy its fortification
2. Use magic like maelstrom to reduce his basic strength
3. Weaken him with some summons
4. use mounted units to weaken him even more

 

[zup]

1. Even in a city, he still gets the hill bonus. Granted city raider will help.
2. Magic will work. But what if you don't have a mage handy?
3. This is dangerously close to fodder. And again requires a caster which I might have, or might not have.
4. They still might die (fodder). And if I was using them, I'd be going for a lucky kill for massive xp.

Let me illustrate the point a little bit better. We'll take a normal hill and no free promotions to keep it simple. A 5 xp beastmaster with guerilla I & II. 14 base strength + 100% hill defense + 25% terrain defense modifier = 31.5 effective strength. Against a phalanx with iron weapons and combat V, 26 xp. 14 base strength + 100% = 28 effective strength. The beastmaster defends the hill, but he has no fortification bonus. The phalanx attacks. The units have identical base strength, as well as strength modifier from promotions. However, even though the phalanx has more than 5 times the xp, he has lower odds of winning. And what more can our phalanx get? Mithril weapons and drill I-IV and commando. Even with mithril weapons his effective strength is just 32. Not much better than the beastmaster. How godly an unit do you need to have a good odds against him? Nothing in the pedia suggests phalanxes fight poorly in hills. From personal experience I can tell that it can easily take 3 unpromoted warriors to bring down an unpromoted barbarian warrior without any sort of defensive advantage. But phalanxes are limited in number and costly so you just cannot spam them at the beastmasters.

In short: Is guerilla I + II supposed to make recon untouchable on hills? Wasn't this mod supposed to give an advantage for veteran units? 5 times more xp, 3 times level.

This is even more of an issue in vanilla FFH as there is no master's equipment. Generally, I feel melee get better equipment than recon (AS SHOULD BE!). Perhaps the phalanx can get a little more even with equipment.

EDIT: Give me an example of an unit and required promotions to have 99.9% win odds or better against that particular beastmaster. Affinity does not count. Neither does anyone who cannot get useful xp for killing a 31.5 strength unit (Auric anyone?).

 

[Sephi]

I opened world builder and put a beastmaster with Guerilla I+II on a Hill. Then I let a Knight with Flanking I-III and Mithril weapons attack him. The Knight retreated and the Beastmaster has a base strength of 1.3 now (or 2.85 modified).

It's not 99.9%, but still nice.

 

[Breez]

Iceiro, I'm not sure where you're going with that city attack thing. You can already get a city attack bonus. It's called City Raider. It gives 30%, which is more than anything else mentioned in this thread. And there's also the general combat bonuses, which also count in city fighting. I don't think that argument holds weight.

Exactly... which would then STACK on top of your proposed bonus to hill attack adding even more.

The point being cities on a hill would be pointless because everyone could simply nullify that advantage so why bother?

Personally i could see adding a +10% hill attack per level (total 20%) That would mean even a unskilled unit defensing a hilltop against mountaineering experts would maintain a small 5% bonus from their tactically advantageous position.

 

[deadliver]

Love the Woodsman, completely fine with Guerilla as an excellent defensive promotion.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

Geruilla DOES NOT ned a hill attack bonus. Balance without paralleling.

 

[Capn Charlie]

I think guerrilla is fine as is, my only complaint is that it takes Arete to learn. Ok, they're miners, I get it, but highlanders have to suck in hills unless they're miners too? I'd rather see it moved on down the line in a different tech tree. perhaps add it on to the military tech that gives a great commander, along with the woodsman promotion, to make the race for that tech all the more heated.

 

[WarKirby]

Exactly... which would then STACK on top of your proposed bonus to hill attack adding even more.

The point being cities on a hill would be pointless because everyone could simply nullify that advantage so why bother?

Yes, it would stack on top of that. For an extra promotion. If you get the city raider, all 3 levels, then you could go for guerilla to get a better hill attack bonus. or you could go for combat I instead, which would still vie a better bonus. you'd need a lv9 unit before that argument even begins to be relevant

"everyone" could not nullify that advantage, because very few units can reach that required xp level. Even if it were a 25% hill attack bonus for guerrilla, the 30% city attack would still be better for that case.

My point iwht this idea, is to keep guerilla a mostly defensiv thing, but to have SOME offensive bonus to it as well, to reflect the general getting used to hilly terrrain, and how to move in it. I think 15% for guerilla I, and maybe 25% for Guerilla II would be good.

 

[Breez]

Which would require rebalancing all city defense promos... Regardless of when it becomes relevant it DOES become relevant.

I disagree with your assessment. Personally I disagree with many of your suggestions. You have enough to try a modmodmod, you might lump 'em all together and see where you end up, but for the most part I don't think it is one i would play.

who knows, maybe I am in the minority.

 

[Iceciro]

I'm with Breez on this one, though i've resisted bringing it up for a long time.

There seems to be a laundry list of design choices you disagree with / things you want implemented. In many cases you make the comment that it isn't such a difficult thing. You're well within your rights to make such suggestions (I've made some too, I'm sure.). But for things like this your best bet is probabaly to mod it in yourself - it's a slight change to the PromotionInfos.xml file that isn't difficult at all. Then if you think the main mod needs it you can bring it up. Right now you don't really even have the experience of saying "I've done it in my game and these are the issues it does/doesn't bring up."
And then instead of spending time trying to convince us your idea is better, you can play your little slice of Erebus just how you want it.

My apologies if I came across uncivil or in any way mean/spiteful, as I'm not trying to be. I simply think this is probabaly the better option for you as far as all these tweaks go.