Guess the New Civs

[Gucumatz]

Sometimes I think if that is really true or people just dont know anything about the history of Brazil. Overall, the history of Latin America tends to be ignored by foreigners. So, of course Brazil didnt have major impacts on Europe (besides being a huge gold mine to Portugal, England and the Catholic Church), but the world is not only Europe and US. Brazil is a power of this continent since the 1600s.

Of course we are not france or rome, so Ill concede and agree with you. As I said, I prefer the ancients civs like summeria, phoenicia, hitites...

But, IF they are choosing one or two modern civs, Brazil is way ahead most of the candidates IMO.

Like I have said of the Modern nation States, Brazil is the most likely to get in (but that still doesn't mean very likely to get in).

The Brazilian Empire, fighting off the Dutch (I understand at that time was portugueese), economic powerhouse from 16th Cent to late 20th Cent. Economic Powerhouse once again. Controls a lot of influence in South America, has built several major wonders, high populace, and the native history could be included too. (Putting in a Tupi unit wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility).

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, one thing, Argentina had a first world navy. It was very wealthy. In 1890, it had a navy probably on par with the US.

The problems with the comparisons to Germany is Germany clearly incorporates history from before unification. In particular, Prussia, but also arguably the Holy Roman Empire and even the Germanic Federations and Tribes that fought against Rome.

 

[King Kalmah]

I think Germany is the youngest civ?
The Zulu Kingdom precedes Germany by half a century or so.

But of course it's hard to define 'civ' and the age of the civ.

I hate to be a nerd,but ....

"In the course of the 817ad Ordinatio Imperii, Louis the German had already received the territory of the former Bavarian stem duchy from his father and thereafter had assumed the title of a "King of Bavaria". After his accession to the throne, he unsuccessfully attacked the neighbouring Great Moravia and struggled with plundering Vikings and Magyars, though he managed to keep his artificial realm between the Rhine and Elbe rivers together. When the son of his brother Lothair, Lothair II of Lotharingia died in 869ad, he also received large parts of his kingdom (Lotharii) west of the Rhine by the 870ad Treaty of Meerssen."

I know this because Grand Prince Árpád was devasting German lands at ths time...

Germany has a rich history and precedded Holy Roman Empire...its just that wasn't unified till recently however

oh and for all you Austria-Hungary Haters out there...we don't only speak German...we speak Hungarian aswell...(diversity points...firaxis pls notice...)

oh and throw in Elizabeth Báthory as leader of Hungary and all the girls are happy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Báthory

 

[Louis XXIV]

The problem with Austria-Hungary is that it was the decline of the Habsburg Empire. At it's height, it was just the Austrian Empire. They became a dual monarchy because they were becoming less and less able to suppress the Magyars. Then politics became very complicated within the Empire.

People know Austria-Hungary because of World War I, but they self-destructed during the war.

The Austrian Empire was culturally diverse, I'll agree. But Austria-Hungary was a shell of the former Empire's strength.

 

[Fabiano79]

Well, one thing, Argentina had a first world navy. It was very wealthy. In 1890, it had a navy probably on par with the US.

The problems with the comparisons to Germany is Germany clearly incorporates history from before unification. In particular, Prussia, but also arguably the Holy Roman Empire and even the Germanic Federations and Tribes that fought against Rome.

Oh, I dont question the merits of Germany, I surely agree that they belong to the game. I just saying that "very modern" is questionable.

But I still fail to see the power you guys seem to give to Argentina. Until the industrialization of the midle 1900, Brazil and Argentina were not that influent.

Betwen 1800-1900, Colombia, Venezuela and most of all, Paraguay, were the real leaders of the continent.

Before that, in the colonial period, Argentina and Brazil are powerfull because of the presence of the spanish and portuguese. So, I would say that Portugal and Spain are powerfull, not Brazil and Argentina.

In the end, I think that the number of australians, canadians, austrians and brazilians that bought the game will have weight on firaxis decision of the next civs. Considering how piracy here is a huge problem, I think we will not see Brazil so soon.

 

[CivOasis]

I thought Brasil was always powerful, even as a colony of Portugal.

 

[Louis XXIV]

But I still fail to see the power you guys seem to give to Argentina. Until the industrialization of the midle 1900, Brazil and Argentina were not that influent.

Link

A century ago, there were only seven countries in the world that were more prosperous than Argentina (Belgium, Switzerland, Britain and four former English colonies including the United States), according to Angus Maddison’s historic incomes database. In 1909, per capita income in Argentina was 50 percent higher than in Italy, 180 percent higher than Japan, and almost five times higher than in neighboring Brazil. Over the course of the 20th century, Argentina’s relative standing in world incomes fell sharply. By 2000, Argentina’s income was less than half that of Italy or Japan.

 

[Fabiano79]

I thought Brasil was always powerful, even as a colony of Portugal.

But I credit that to Portugal, not Brazil. And as far as influence go, Brazil had none. Because didnt mater. Portugal had agreements with the spanish, there was little conflicts, but all negotiations were between the two european powers.

 

[Fabiano79]

Ok Louis, I will not discuss with the NY Times.

 

[JFD]

I personally would like other European civs, as I tend to play based upon the civilisation, and not their game attributes, and there are few non-European civs that I look passionately upon that aren't already included. But I would definitely support Ethiopia, which is also a likely candidate. As I doubt they would make any more than two of the remaining Civs European, I would guess the Zulu are highly probable. If Firaxis tended to go on player demand, Poland might be a likely civ as well. No other civ is so passionately called for on the 2k Forums.

Personally, I would love a special DLC to be released which added HM Elizabeth II in time for her jubilee celebrations (though the actual date has passed) as an alternative leaderhead for England.

On the City-State side of things. I think Florence should become a Mercantile CS and they should add Lubeck (unless it is already in the game, in which case it should be made into a Mercantile CS as well.)

 

[Gucumatz]

I hope in the next 2-5 years excavation of the great Chachapoya cities will also attract the attention of the media.

As a civ they were so important to South America and the second most important Pre-Colombian Civ in South America easily. My Maya have gotten plenty of attention, I hope that the Chachapoya will get some finally after 2012 passes and I won't have to deal with people asking me about it and the mdeia's insane skewing of our culture.
====

Anyways, very few of you on here I feel know about the Chachapoya, just curious how many of you all know/have heard about them? They are basically as the Maya are to the Aztecs they [The Chachapoya] are to the Inca.

(I will allow references to the Opening Scene of Indiana Jones)

 

[CivOasis]

I hope in the next 2-5 years excavation of the great Chachapoya cities will also attract the attention of the media.

As a civ they were so important to South America and the second most important Pre-Colombian Civ in South America easily. My Maya have gotten plenty of attention, I hope that the Chachapoya will get some finally after 2012 passes and I won't have to deal with people asking me about it and the mdeia's insane skewing of our culture.
====

Anyways, very few of you on here I feel know about the Chachapoya, just curious how many of you all know/have heard about them? They are basically as the Maya are to the Aztecs they [The Chachapoya] are to the Inca.

(I will allow references to the Opening Scene of Indiana Jones)

I've heard of them, but, even by native American standards, they aren't very well known. I would expect a Mapuche (stopped Incan expansion south, fought with several colonial nations) or Tupi civ, if anything.

 

[Louis XXIV]

The problem with the Chachapoya is they're in the same geographic area and were later conquered by the Inca. It's the same problem as having Mali and Songhai in the same game. Maybe Siam and Khmer is a better example. Either way, problematic, but not impossible.

There was also a really cool civilization with complex civil society in the Amazon Rain Forest, but I'm drawing a blank on their name. They might be like the Mississippians in that they didn't leave many records, though.

 

[Gucumatz]

Yes thats the problem they aren't too well known yet, but they are much more significant than the Tupi or Mapuche ever were.

They fought with the Inca for hundreds of years and prevented Incan expansion to the north. They created a vast trading empire and collected tithes from the Inca and controlled trade from the North/South/and the Amazon. All goods from the Amazon came through Chachapoyan lands and that wealth caused resentment from the rest of the Andean world because they set the price on any of the luxury goods the Inca bought). Kuelap was considered a massive religious center where people from all over the Andean World, even Incans, would come to be buried. Their cities were large, 60,000 for Kuelap.

Their infrastructure is amazing (They built the largest pyramid in South America, they built mausoleums on the sides of cliffs, they built mountain forts in higher elevations than the Inca ever did)

Mumification in the region began with them, there is evidence of trade of the Chachapoya with at least Easter Island and the Carribean and probably much further, and lets not forget the Chachapoya were key in defeating their age old enemy the Inca by giving valuable information to the Spaniards helping divide the Incans who were in Civil War and helped conquer the Inca alongside the Spaniards

 

[JFD]

I have only heard of them [the Chachapoya] in passing, in reading of the Incas, and that the Spanish betrayed one of their leaders that allied with Pizarro after Atahualpa was killed. If you say they are the South American equivalent to the Maya then I would be very interesting in learning more about them, because I have always respected the Maya more than the Aztecs, to be honest. I'll be sure to have a read up on them. I definitely think the Maya are being wrongly portrayed as doomsayers as well.

 

[Gucumatz]

Obviously I use that equivalency with some caveats attached, but in many ways they were like the Maya of South America.

They were a confederation of many city states that acted in defense and aggresion to spread trade/influence. But in a sense that makes them more unique. The Maya always were just a group of city states with few alliances between one another, (the Tikal alliance was probably the largest). But the fact that there was a leader of the Chachapoyan confederation and their impact on the region for so long is interesting.

Yes they occupy a similar area to the Inca, but they also controlled parts of the cloud forest regions and the outer Amazons.

 

[Fabiano79]

The Chachapoya arent know enough (maybe after those excavations you said this can be changed) and probably they would have a gameplay too close to the Mayans to justify their inclusion.

I like the Tupi and the Guarani as a new native american civ. They would have a very diferent gameplay, more based on commerce and diplomacy. Although they ended being killed or slaved, for a long time they try to negociate and trade with the portuguese. The con is that they were mostly collectors and hunters, way behind the Mayas, Aztecs and Incas in technology.

 

[CivOasis]

Could opt for Chibchan confederacies, since they inspired El Dorado and all.

 

[Gucumatz]

Yea it is probably wishful thinking. But just comparing accomplishments, the Chibcha, Tupi, Mapuche, Guarani come no where close to the Chachapoya. Population, military history, and architecture are all triumphed over with the Chachapoya in comparison. I personally like looking at the significance and power of a civ rather than its fame, and the Chachapoya were that important.

And to be honest all of them are really not to well known. Of the ones mentioned the Tupi would be the most likely to get in sadly.

 

[CivOasis]

I'm aware, being an advocate for Teotihuacan as a civ.