Gun Show Undercover

Federal law is pretty clear on this Eco.

Licensed dealers MUST have the buyer complete a 4473 and then do a NICS background check over the phone and then register the purchase on their books.

Yes they do this at gun shows. They bring their forms and do the background check with their cell phones. If they don't do this then they are committing a federal felony and can go to prison for a long long time.

There is no exemptions to this. It doesn't matter if he is selling the gun in a store, in the parking lot, in his home or at a gun show. Its federal law.

I don't care what Florida says or does.

Now, as I said before, private sellers (people without a license) are exempt from this. But as the article says making a living off of selling guns without a license is also a serious federal crime.

It could be argued that it is unconstitutional for the federal government to require this when the sales are strictly in-state though, as their authority is from the Interstate Commerce Clause. The courts have long supported extremely broad interpretations of that clause, but they have been getting a little narrower lately.

I recall hearing that one western state (I forget what state, but I think it was probably Montana) has recently declared that guns made and sold instate to citizens of that state are exempt from federal regulation, and gun makers there have begun stamping "Made in [enter state name here]" on them instead of serial numbers. This is of course just begging for a supreme court case, but I don't think it has come to trial yet.




(Personally I've come to think that the second amendment should probably apply only to the federal government, but prevent the Feds from regulating guns at all except in what is clearly interstate commerce. Basically they should be treated like Alcohol under the 21st amendment, with states and localities able to regulate or ban them and the Feds limited to stopping the transport or sale of such weapons were they are illegal under local laws, and maybe placing an excise tax on them. All drugs should be treated similarly.

Of course, it is highly irresponsible for localities to allow gun purchases without thorough background checks. I am no fan of gun shows or any special exceptions for them.)
 
Of course, it is highly irresponsible for localities to allow gun purchases without thorough background checks. I am no fan of gun shows or any special exceptions for them.)

I'll say this once more: There is no such thing as a "gun show exception" for licensed firearm dealers. None. Zip. Nada. No local government can allow people to break federal law. The is no rule or clause that allows people to break the law with in the confines of a gun show.
 
I'll say this once more: There is no such thing as a "gun show exception" for licensed firearm dealers. None. Zip. Nada. No local government can allow people to break federal law. The is no rule or clause that allows people to break the law with in the confines of a gun show.
So in the case of the video/report in the OP, are all these people simply acting illegally? If so, it that the ATFs jurisdiction to do something about?
 
So in the case of the video/report in the OP, are all these people simply acting illegally? If so, it that the ATFs jurisdiction to do something about?

The article says they are private sellers who aren't required to do all the red tape. Private citizens can sell their guns but they cannot do it for a living or on a regular basis. For that they need a federally issued license. They may be breaking federal law or maybe not. But yeah it's up to the BATFE to decide what constitutes selling guns without a license and they bust people all the time for it. It's a very serious crime to be selling guns regularly without a license.

The fact that they are at gun show grants them no special immunities. They can sell their private property wherever but they can't do it for a living and they can be held legally responsible if they sell a gun to a minor or to a criminal.

If they are federally licensed dealers and are transferring (selling) guns with out doing background checks or whatever then yes they are definitely breaking the law.
 
The article says they are private sellers who aren't required to do all the red tape. Private citizens can sell their guns but they cannot do it for a living or on a regular basis. For that they need a federally issued license. They may be breaking federal law or maybe not. But yeah it's up to the BATFE to decide what constitutes selling guns without a license and they bust people all the time for it. It's a very serious crime to be selling guns regularly without a license.

The fact that they are at gun show grants them no special immunities. They can sell their private property wherever but they can't do it for a living and they can be held legally responsible if they sell a gun to a minor or to a criminal.

If they are federally licensed dealers and are transferring (selling) guns with out doing background checks or whatever then yes they are definitely breaking the law.

So what is making a living from gun sales, if some bloke has a hundred weapons for sale that is his private property and he just happens to make a profit is there a problem with that ?

Of course we have different rules, we cannot sell any firearm to a person who does not hold a firearms license.
We tend not to want the mentally ill to have the absolute right to own firearms.
 
Wasn't sure, before, if you meant private sales or you were alluding to this. While I'm not going to agree on the point by point, overall, I understand what you are saying.

There's always the Mexican drug trafficker issue....
 
So what is making a living from gun sales, if some bloke has a hundred weapons for sale that is his private property and he just happens to make a profit is there a problem with that ?

I don't know the specifics but I know that to make a living selling guns you have to have a license. Technically you're allowed to sell your guns to whoever without paperwork or whatever. But if the police think you're crossing the boundary into making a living or doing it on a regular basis then they can bring charges against you.

The funny thing is that there is no set limit on how many guns one can sell in a time period or how much profit one can make before it becomes "making a living" so it's actually up the police and magistrates to arbitrarily decide if you're committing a serious felony.

Just one one of many, many problems with gun laws in this country not to mention many other laws we have.
 
If you enjoy criminally-high priced ammo and guns then a gun show is the right place to go. On top of that you have to pay just to get in to browse the stuff.

I went to one once and that was enough. I think I'll just stick to normal stores and buying online.

FriendlyFire is greatly saddened.
There goes any my pipe dream of ww2 weapon arsenal.
 
I see what you are saying now, Bug.

"Private citizens" use gun shows to act as dealers, without the attending regulations of being a dealer.

Right?
 
Selling AK47 and Famas is unamerican that gun dealer should be ashamed of himself.
I demand a four part series on fox news and tea parties.

(Thats so looks so awesome I would love to goto these gun shows.)
Indeed, they should be selling M-16s and M4A1s instead.
Buy American made.
 
I don't know the specifics but I know that to make a living selling guns you have to have a license. Technically you're allowed to sell your guns to whoever without paperwork or whatever. But if the police think you're crossing the boundary into making a living or doing it on a regular basis then they can bring charges against you.

The funny thing is that there is no set limit on how many guns one can sell in a time period or how much profit one can make before it becomes "making a living" so it's actually up the police and magistrates to arbitrarily decide if you're committing a serious felony.

Just one one of many, many problems with gun laws in this country not to mention many other laws we have.

So why not move to a system like ours ? once one has shown they are a fit and proper person who can handle firearms safely they can have as many as they want, with the exception of pistols and military style rifles under a normal license .
 
I see what you are saying now, Bug.

"Private citizens" use gun shows to act as dealers, without the attending regulations of being a dealer.

Right?

They legally sell and trade their private property be it via gun shows, yard sales or in private newspaper adds or whatever. Just like you do with a car you want to sell.

At some point it becomes illegal if you don't ha license. But that is the jurisdiction of the BATFE to investigate. Not the NYPD or Mayor Boob-berg.
 
They legally sell and trade their private property be it via gun shows, yard sales or in private newspaper adds or whatever. Just like you do with a car you want to sell.
(I'm thinking out loud here, I'm not advocating one way or the other)
Should they be liable if they sell to a felon?

What would happen if a citizen sold alcohol to a minor? Is that legal?

I know, alcohol isn't of the same legal stature... but what if the laws were at the state level (as most alcohol laws are, btw..)?

Like I said, thinking out loud.
 
Here's some interesting info from the wiki on gun shows:
A Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that 0.8% of prison inmates reported acquiring firearms used in their crimes "At a gun show," with repeat offenders less likely than first-time offenders to report acquiring firearms from a retail source, gun show or flea market. This 2001 study examined data from a 1997 Department of Justice survey of more than 18,000 federal and state prison inmates in 1,409 State prisons and 127 Federal prisons.[19].[20] The remaining 99.2% of inmates reported obtaining firearms from other sources, including "From a friend/family member" (36.8%), "Off the street/from a drug dealer" (20.9%), "From a fence/black market source" (9.6%), "From a pawnshop," "From a flea market," "From the victim," or "In a burglary." 9% of inmates replied "Don't Know/Other" to the question of where they acquired a firearm and 4.4% refused to answer.[20] The Department of Justice did not attempt to verify the firearms reported in the survey or trace them to determine their chain of possession from original retail sale to the time they were transferred to the inmates surveyed (in cases where inmates were not the original retail purchaser).[21]

In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) published the "Following the Gun" report.[22] The ATF analyzed more 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation (behind only corrupt federally licensed dealers). These investigations involved a total of 84,128 firearms that had been diverted from legal to illegal commerce. All told, the report identified more than 26,000 firearms that had been illegally trafficked through gun shows in 212 separate investigations. The report stated that: "A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations."

Dr. Garen Wintemute, Director of UC Davis’ Violence Prevention Research Program, released a study in 2007 that found that gun shows are a venue for illegal activity, including straw purchases and unlicensed sales to prohibited individuals.[23] Wintemute attended 28 gun shows in California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas and Florida; took hundreds of photographs; and catalogued 25 definite straw purchases. Outside of California, observed private party sales were about equal in number to sales involving licensed firearm dealers. Wintemute found that only 30% of vendors at the shows were identifiable as licensed dealers; observed illegal activity was more common at gun shows in states that fail to regulate gun shows; and there was little police presence at the shows. The study stated, “These findings suggest a basis for action by policymakers to regulate gun shows and prohibit undocumented private party gun sales.”

In 2008, professors Mark Duggan and Randi Hjalmarsson at the University of Maryland and Brian Jacob from the University of Michigan released a working paper that found no evidence that gun shows lead to substantial increases in either gun homicides or gun suicides.[24] The study looked at 2,200 gun shows in Texas and almost 1,200 gun shows in California during the period of 1994-2004 and examined their effect on gun homicide and gun suicide rates within a 25-mile radius of the shows in the four weeks immediately following their conclusion. The authors stated that, “Taken together, our results suggest that gun shows do not increase the number of homicides or suicides and that the absence of gun show regulations does not increase the number of gun-related deaths as proponents of these regulations suggest.”

The Duggan, et al., working paper was critiqued publicly by a group of researchers from the University of California, Davis, the Harvard School of Public Health, the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Northeastern University, the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, and the University of California, Berkeley. The researchers critiqued the model underlying the paper for failing to reflect the realities of the operations of gun markets and the dynamics of criminal gun use.[25]

Source
 
(I'm thinking out loud here, I'm not advocating one way or the other)
Should they be liable if they sell to a felon?

What would happen if a citizen sold alcohol to a minor? Is that legal?

I know, alcohol isn't of the same legal stature... but what if the laws were at the state level (as most alcohol laws are, btw..)?

Like I said, thinking out loud.

You'd be criminally responsible if you knowingly sold a firearm to a criminal or minor. I think I mentioned this in my other post.
 
Regardless of Bloomberg's strict approach to gun legislation, the lax legal standards prevalent at gunshots are are appalling. I wonder if there's been any studies into cost effective ways to crack down on this? Yeah, it's a little below 1% of the problem, but if that could be reduced by say, half, with a couple of high profile crackdowns, or an officer or two standing around, it's worth considering.
 
Maybe there should be some sort of certificate of having had a background check that you could present? It's a bit craxy to make people at a gun show chase up the police for every customer, but equally crazy to just give the things out

In a few states (I know Alaska is one of them) a state-issued CCW permit does precisely this. But that aside, the "NICS background check" involves calling a number (I assume provided by the FBI) and reading off the customer's ID info (social security number, name, etc), then five to thirty minutes later getting called back with a response of ok, no sale, or further time required.
 
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