Hallstatt should be the Celtic capital...

[G-Max]

...and their second city should be La Tène.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hallstatt_LaTene.png

Discuss.

 

[Sian]

congats ... you know how to use Wikipedia ... now you just have to figure out that earliest city aren't the major city

...'cause then Americans would have Jamestown as first city. Vikings would have uppsala, Spanish would have Leon, Germany would likely have a Prommian city (or prehaps a city down by the alps, even through that wasn't where current-day Germany hail from)... Rügen prehaps?? France would have Metz (since that was the capital for the Merovingian Franks) etc ... nearly no civ have their earliest city as their capital.

 

[G-Max]

The difference is that the Celts never really had a capital or "most important" city, so this is one of the few times when it makes sense to go chronologically.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

The difference is that the Celts never really had a capital or "most important" city, so this is one of the few times when it makes sense to go chronologically.

Which Celts are you speaking of? I can think of a number of "important cities" that are more or less Celtic in origin:

Glasgow, Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Belfast, Londonderry, Dublin, Cork, places in Wales, a number of places in England as well as Northern Europe if you include the Gauls...

Methinks that Wikipedia didn't tell you everything.

 

[Tortsch]

Celts as one civilization is a messed up mix of several ancient nations anyhow.
Boudicca was a leader of a British tribe.
Brennus was a leader of a French tribe.
There was no celtic nation, not even a common language.

How should this be sorted?
Alternating French and British city names?
It's weird anyway, I don't care how the cities are named in this case.

 

[G-Max]

Which Celts are you speaking of? I can think of a number of "important cities" that are more or less Celtic in origin:

Glasgow, Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Belfast, Londonderry, Dublin, Cork, places in Wales, a number of places in England as well as Northern Europe if you include the Gauls...

Methinks that Wikipedia didn't tell you everything.

LOL. You're equating the entirety of Celtic culture with the few remnants of it that survived on the British Isles. It was actually much, much more widespread than that.

Wikipedia told me more than you apparently know

Celts as one civilization is a messed up mix of several ancient nations anyhow.
Boudicca was a leader of a British tribe.
Brennus was a leader of a French tribe.

Actually, Boudica was an Icenian Queen and Brennus was leader of a Gaulish (or is it Gallic?) tribe, as Britain and France didn't exist back then.

How should this be sorted?

Well, I've already offered a good starting place...

 

[Tortsch]

Actually, Boudica was an Icenian Queen and Brennus was leader of a Gaulish (or is it Gallic?) tribe, as Britain and France didn't exist back then.

I think it was clear to everybody that Britain and France did not exist at this time.
I meant to say "British" and "French" as in "now British/French territory".

I do not like the concept of putting all these different tribes into one big civilization.
This is clarified even more when speaking of Icenian and Gallic tribes. Or the culture which settled in Hallstatt.

Yes, you could include the bigger cities from the Hallstatt culture in Civ for sure.
To me it would be neither improvement nor damage, since it is a big muddle anyhow.

 

[G-Max]

Agreed. The same is more or less true of the Sumerians, Vikings, and even the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

LOL. You're equating the entirety of Celtic culture with the few remnants of it that survived on the British Isles. It was actually much, much more widespread than that.

I'm not an idiot. I'm quite aware of Celtic history. The "entirety of Celtic culture" that I'm most familiar with is my own. You were going on about there being no major Celtic cities, and I just wanted to point out a few that have arisen from Celtic culture.

Wikipedia told me more than you apparently know

Who needs Wikipedia? I can just fly home to Ireland and look around.

And btw, Ireland is not a "British" Isle. That's a good tip, should you ever visit...

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

And btw, Ireland is not a "British" Isle. That's a good tip, should you ever visit...

What? I thought England and Ireland were pretty much the same.


I'll just be over here...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What? I thought England and Ireland were pretty much the same.


I'll just be over here...

Well, that's true isn't it? I mean, America is just one of the Federated States of Mexico, right?


To be honest, though, I would like to hear the interpretation that goes behind the original remark. I mean, is it correct to refer to Ireland and Scotland as being part of Great Britain and/or The United Kingdom?

Is "England" the country or is one of "Great Britain" and/or "The United Kingdom" considered to be a country, too? If not a country, then what is the designation?

Are Ireland and/or Scotland independent countries in their own rights?

I'd rather get the facts from someone "in the know" than trust a dubious source like Wikipedia.

 

[ATC1983]

Well, that's true isn't it? I mean, America is just one of the Federated States of Mexico, right?


Give it 20 years.....

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Well, that's true isn't it? I mean, America is just one of the Federated States of Mexico, right?


To be honest, though, I would like to hear the interpretation that goes behind the original remark. I mean, is it correct to refer to Ireland and Scotland as being part of Great Britain and/or The United Kingdom?

Is "England" the country or is one of "Great Britain" and/or "The United Kingdom" considered to be a country, too? If not a country, then what is the designation?

Are Ireland and/or Scotland independent countries in their own rights?

I'd rather get the facts from someone "in the know" than trust a dubious source like Wikipedia.

Ireland is a self ruled republic. Northern Ireland is still under British rule, so it is correct to refer to Northern Ireland as being part of the UK. Most of the people that I knew growing up in Dublin didn't really care that much about what we were called, but there is still a lot of anti-British sentiment in both Irelands. That is particularly true in Northern Ireland, as past events have shown.

It's rather complicated and not very interesting. I've been away more than 20 years, and things seem to be a little more sensible when I go back for a visit now and then, but it just isn't a good subject for a tourist to bring up whilst visiting.

You never know how the person you're talking to feels about the subject.

 

[lampshade]

Ireland is a self ruled republic. Northern Ireland is still under British rule, so it is correct to refer to Northern Ireland as being part of the UK. Most of the people that I knew growing up in Dublin didn't really care that much about what we were called, but there is still a lot of anti-British sentiment in both Irelands. That is particularly true in Northern Ireland, as past events have shown.

It's rather complicated and not very interesting. I've been away more than 20 years, and things seem to be a little more sensible when I go back for a visit now and then, but it just isn't a good subject for a tourist to bring up whilst visiting.

You never know how the person you're talking to feels about the subject.

hmm minefield.
* the british isles is a geographic term that includes ireland. that's all. some pedants don't like the term because it includes the word "british" but it shouldn't be a big deal. it doesn't mean that ireland is british politically, it just means it's british geographically.
* i think in the last 20 years a lot has changed in ireland both north and south. most people really don't care about n.ireland being british they just want to get on with their lives. i know a lot of irish people from both sides of the border and have been both sides several times and having a conversation about the political situation would have been awkward 20 years ago but would just seem dull and out of date now - like striking up a conversation about the best kind of video recorder to buy.
* so far as the list of "celtic" cities you mention, well i can't remember the whole list but i know that glasgow, edinburgh and belfast only emerged since 1000ad so they can't be celtic, the celts were long gone by then. i think you said they rose up from celtic culture, which is a little bit like saying mexico city is aztec or that cairo is ancient egyptian. i think glasgow was a tiny village until the middle ages - it's scottish not celtic. i think derry is properly ancient but i'm not sure.

 

[Grassland Farm]

LOL. You're equating the entirety of Celtic culture with the few remnants of it that survived on the British Isles. It was actually much, much more widespread than that.


Remnants? Survived? The British Islands were Celtic before the Roman started to help their "civilized" Greek Massilian friends against the "Barbarians".

+ Apparently you define cities by their cultural importance? Why does Amercia found Washington before Los Angeles? Why do Spain found Madrid before Barcelona? in civ the first city is the Civ's Capital (or the wannabe Capital for celts/vikings/zulu etc..)

 

[FlyingSwan]

An excellent documentary series came out earlier this year on the BBC"A history of celtic Britain".4 episodes going from bronze age through to the Roman invasion.It details some of the recent celtic hordes of treasure found here,the Gallic warriors and Boudica,s last stand against the Romans.


Well worth watching as it basically goes through the early civ tech tree according to the celts.BW/AGR/Preisthood/IW/AH/HBR/writ.(thats about right I think!?)But it also tells of how widespread the celts were in Europe so I think in reply to G-max I dont think you can pin them down to a Historical capital.You,ve got me thinking though so Il look into it,wheres that simon schama book gone...

 

[Haig]

Funny coincidence, just today I was reading John Keegan's "History of Warfare" (a very Civ-friendly book, with everything from Montezuma's aztecs and Egypts war chariots to pretty much all unique units.. ) and I was reading about how the Hallstatt culture dominated with steel and steel swords for a while before others catched up.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Funny coincidence, just today I was reading John Keegan's "History of Warfare" (a very Civ-friendly book, with everything from Montezuma's aztecs and Egypts war chariots to pretty much all unique units.. ) and I was reading about how the Hallstatt culture dominated with steel and steel swords for a while before others catched up.

Yeah, the Celts were pretty dominant in Europe for a while, although generally politically fragmented. I'll have to get that book.

@Lemon Merchant - even today, trying to tell people in Ireland that they're British isn't high on my list of things to do. That would be well beyond "faux pas". You're right, the Irish haven't forgotten the English. I always try to keep the two well separate so I don't majorly offend someone.

 

[Farm Boy]

"Oh it is the biggest mix-up that you have ever seen. My father he was orange and my mother she was green." Gaddernit. Now this is going to be stuck in my head all day...

 

[Negator_UK]

And btw, Ireland is not a "British" Isle. That's a good tip, should you ever visit...

Yes it is.

However only a small part of it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Celts were spread through Europe, not just Britain. having celts in Civ means we can have the English (a good thing imho ) but given the way that in Civ4 Celtia is taken to mean Wales and Ireland I think that a Gaulish Civ would have been a good idea too.

After all we'd get to play a king called Vercingetorix !