Dirk1302
Deity
In my experience you need one extra modifier (guilds or chem) besides caste to make shops really worthwhile. Whipping (with forges and OR) is better before i think.
Hammer-Heavy Econ. (Immortal Test)
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PaulisKhan
Physicist
I'm all in favour of the CoL slingshot.
It's possibly a bit early to be discussing the next part already, but do we want to found Confuc in our cottage city or in our specialist city.
Traditionally I put it in my cottage city and drop both Wall Street and Oxford in the same city (usually bureau capital) and run research at 0%/100% but that is not doable here.
I've heard good things about founding the holy in the specialist city and running a lot of merchants, splitting wall street into in the specialist city and oxford into our commerce city should absolve the need to drop the research slider occassionaly (I think that this is probably obvious to all of you though, and I'm the dullard just catching up).
mining->bronze->poly->priest->writing=>>>complete oracle(CoL)??
Quechas let us delay archery a bit, however we may want to throw hunting in there early anyway to work those eles.
It's possibly a bit early to be discussing the next part already, but do we want to found Confuc in our cottage city or in our specialist city.
Traditionally I put it in my cottage city and drop both Wall Street and Oxford in the same city (usually bureau capital) and run research at 0%/100% but that is not doable here.
I've heard good things about founding the holy in the specialist city and running a lot of merchants, splitting wall street into in the specialist city and oxford into our commerce city should absolve the need to drop the research slider occassionaly (I think that this is probably obvious to all of you though, and I'm the dullard just catching up).
mining->bronze->poly->priest->writing=>>>complete oracle(CoL)??
Quechas let us delay archery a bit, however we may want to throw hunting in there early anyway to work those eles.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Yep, one 1 modifier makes them the same as a forested plains tile or a forested plains hill (but allows river commerce).
It takes the second modifier to turn them into the equivelent of mined hills.
The problem is, do we want to be whipping early on or do we want castes to run merchants/pop borders.
Well, right, caste + workshop are only the same as forest tiles, but with 1 decent food tile for each helper city, we should at least be able to get around 15 base hammers, allowing us to get units out every 2-4 turns with forge and giving us also some decent research when building it... ...I haven never tried it, so I have no idea IF it works, but I´m inclined to use Oracle to get CoL, switch Caste, run merchents in 1 city, bulb MC, spamm cities and workshops everywhere with big overlap except GP farm and cottage heaven, trade for Alpha and build science or units everywhere (15 hammers + forge, some plot commerce per city would be somelthing like 20 beakers per city... ...10 cities = 200 beakers)... ...like already said, no idea if it works, but I would switch to caste ASAP, when CoL is in...
...and to go warring, we only have to switch to unit production for a really short time, if you use the 10 city exemple above... ...10 turns of unitspamm should give us something like 30 units
, so we can easily switch from reseach to warring in the blink of an eye...
...in theory, it sounds cool and stuff, so I´d like to try that out
...and to go warring, we only have to switch to unit production for a really short time, if you use the 10 city exemple above... ...10 turns of unitspamm should give us something like 30 units
, so we can easily switch from reseach to warring in the blink of an eye......in theory, it sounds cool and stuff, so I´d like to try that out
Dirk1302
Deity
Agree with this, early workshops under caste is definitely more cool than the dirty old whip. It also saves on the whipping mm.
Did another short thest to verify the above mentioned, this time with Inka:
Managed to spamm 11 cities until 1 AD
, managed to build Orakle, took CoL, used mechants to get MC... ...works like a charm... ...but after the basic techs (incl. writing for the GP farm) we are better off switching research to ZERO... ...while spamming these settlers we run broke and are waiting to trade for alpha (upkeep and such
)... ...but once forge and courthouse are built the average city really brings 15-20 hammers=beakers then...
Oh, something else... ...squeezing as many cities as possible on the land we have (like every 3 tiles) is what I think works best (and what I did in this test)
...
Once our empire with 10+ cities is up and running and we have courthouse and forge, we should be able to keep up in research I guess, with 150+ hammers=beakers
...
Btw., this strat. goes against everything I preorized and did so far while civving, but it MIGHT EVEN WORK
...
Getting Apo for hammers and some reli wonders (Sankore, SM) we can also think about with the heaps and heaps of cities we would end up having this way and end up with increadible boni...
Managed to spamm 11 cities until 1 AD
, managed to build Orakle, took CoL, used mechants to get MC... ...works like a charm... ...but after the basic techs (incl. writing for the GP farm) we are better off switching research to ZERO... ...while spamming these settlers we run broke and are waiting to trade for alpha (upkeep and such)... ...but once forge and courthouse are built the average city really brings 15-20 hammers=beakers then...Oh, something else... ...squeezing as many cities as possible on the land we have (like every 3 tiles) is what I think works best (and what I did in this test)
...
Once our empire with 10+ cities is up and running and we have courthouse and forge, we should be able to keep up in research I guess, with 150+ hammers=beakers
...
Btw., this strat. goes against everything I preorized and did so far while civving, but it MIGHT EVEN WORK
...
Getting Apo for hammers and some reli wonders (Sankore, SM) we can also think about with the heaps and heaps of cities we would end up having this way and end up with increadible boni...
obsolete
Deity
I don't consider whipping as dirty-old. I also enjoy micromanagement.
Anyhow, AP may seem easy here, but when we hit deity it's not going to consistantly work unless we run specialists.
Some more very good points mentioned here
:AP on deity:
To really ensure the AP on deity, you need a GP in time. Easiest to get via SH + Oracle in capital, no spezies needed...
Whipping:
After thinking about it, NOT whipping in forge + courthouse at least in the first 5-8 cities also seems a too big waist to me, because it really would slow development down... ...but that would mean we would have to delay Caste, hiring merchants and bulbing MC and therefore forges... ...sort of a vicious circle
...
So my question would be: CAN WE REACH A CONSENSUS ON THE FOLLOWING POINTS, SO WE CAN START THE GAME?
1. We build SH in capital
2. We build Oracle in capital
3. We try to get AP (and the reli?)
4. We take from Oracle CoL or MC (I think it must be decided situational...)
5. We spamm as many cities as possible, as close together as possible (provided there is enough food), with the goal to get about 10 cities as fast as possible
6. At lates when we have both, MC and CoL, we switch to caste and prod-eco
7. We stick to the rule: No spezies settled or hired in capital, only spezies in ONE helper city
8. We stick to the rule: No cottages in capital, only cottages in ONE helper city
@ TEAM:
FEEL FREE TO ADD, REMOVE, REWORK ANY OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED POINTS; THEY ARE ONLY FOR DISCUSSION
Some more very good points mentioned here
AP on deity:
To really ensure the AP on deity, you need a GP in time. Easiest to get via SH + Oracle in capital, no spezies needed...
The point is you can`t ensure to get both wonders on deity even with industrious trait. But yes, the GP is often needed to get the AP first.
Whipping:
After thinking about it, NOT whipping in forge + courthouse at least in the first 5-8 cities also seems a too big waist to me, because it really would slow development down... ...but that would mean we would have to delay Caste, hiring merchants and bulbing MC and therefore forges... ...sort of a vicious circle
Yes to whipping.
So my question would be: CAN WE REACH A CONSENSUS ON THE FOLLOWING POINTS, SO WE CAN START THE GAME?
1. We build SH in capital
2. We build Oracle in capital
3. We try to get AP (and the reli?)
4. We take from Oracle CoL or MC (I think it must be decided situational...)
5. We spamm as many cities as possible, as close together as possible (provided there is enough food), with the goal to get about 10 cities as fast as possible
6. At lates when we have both, MC and CoL, we switch to caste and prod-eco
7. We stick to the rule: No spezies settled or hired in capital, only spezies in ONE helper city
8. We stick to the rule: No cottages in capital, only cottages in ONE helper city
@ TEAM:
FEEL FREE TO ADD, REMOVE, REWORK ANY OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED POINTS; THEY ARE ONLY FOR DISCUSSION
I am still not sure about building wonders. Seems like we would pimp our inital strategy via wonders to speed up start, but it is okay for me.
Concerning point3: We need a religion to build AP. So it would be nice to get CoL or Theology first. If we get theology first the AP ist almost sure.
@ Auron:
Yup, no strat works 100% on deity, that´s for sure
But playing Inka, the chances are relly high to get SG + Oracle even on deity due to starting techs and the fact that you need no defenders (=techs) besides quechs...
...
Missing one or even both of these wonders also wont kill us, because I guess the CoL beeline we would do anyways and therefore priest isn´t a waist and the 50% boni on hammers we could convert to gold for not getting the wonders would fuell us at least the research to get there while rexing. Not allowing to try for these wonders, when we already are ind and are beelining these techs anyways seems too much of a waist to me...
Yup, no strat works 100% on deity, that´s for sure
But playing Inka, the chances are relly high to get SG + Oracle even on deity due to starting techs and the fact that you need no defenders (=techs) besides quechs...
...
Missing one or even both of these wonders also wont kill us, because I guess the CoL beeline we would do anyways and therefore priest isn´t a waist and the 50% boni on hammers we could convert to gold for not getting the wonders would fuell us at least the research to get there while rexing. Not allowing to try for these wonders, when we already are ind and are beelining these techs anyways seems too much of a waist to me...
I agree on starting the game.
I don't mind if its played as a succession game or we play the first 50 turns each and play on from the best. If we only play 10 we would all have 2/3 of a worker done and probably mining or hunting teched. If I was going for the Oracle I'd probably start, hunt, poly if we will build wonders if not med, priest, then depend whether taking MC or CoL.
I take it, it's still the plan to run specs/cottages in only 1 city the others will all be hammer based. Whether bulding wealth/research/units/buildings etc.
@Snaaty Just wondering why you want to build the cities that close together? It would certainly affect our cottage city not neccessarily a GP farm.
I don't mind if its played as a succession game or we play the first 50 turns each and play on from the best. If we only play 10 we would all have 2/3 of a worker done and probably mining or hunting teched. If I was going for the Oracle I'd probably start, hunt, poly if we will build wonders if not med, priest, then depend whether taking MC or CoL.
I take it, it's still the plan to run specs/cottages in only 1 city the others will all be hammer based. Whether bulding wealth/research/units/buildings etc.
@Snaaty Just wondering why you want to build the cities that close together? It would certainly affect our cottage city not neccessarily a GP farm.
PaulisKhan
Physicist
let's all play the first 50 turns then
Because of the short test I did... ...we dont need big cities, nor any buildings beside courthouse and forge (and with the AP the 2 reli buildings)... ...so we basically need like 8-10 tiles to work for each city because we are doing best without waisting hammers for any health and happy modifiers for buildings... ...best is, to invest all hammers in army or research
So with the min. distance per city to each side of 3 tiles (which isn´t realistic, it will be often more on a real map due to food and other stuff) we have 9 tiles per city from the first ring already, so dont worry about the spezi and cottage city... ...they can have all overlapping tiles.
Packing our cities has lots of advantages I found out:
-less upkeep
-less wandering with settlers
-more cities in less space
-blocking is more effective therefore (will be a key on deity later)
-more cities=more hammers=more army=more space=more cities =... ...see?=more good
That would be for exemple a solution to get SH and Oracle on deity 100% sure (at least one of the team will make it, for that I hold the bet)
...
@ Team:
I would prefere to start like every normal SG right from the start, but since Obs already mentioned that the first turns will be parallel play, this will be it I guess... ...but I also prefere 50 turns over 20 turns (what Obs proposed if I remember right)
...
@ Obs:
So chefe, team seems to be ready, you have the final word on rules, wonders yes/no/depends , whipping yes/no/depends and so on... ...once you tell us our final destination
for this SG we can start (and dont forget the save)
obsolete
Deity
Alright, I have attached the original save to this post.
So... everyone gets 10 turns per turn-set. And since we start on turn 0, that means your last turn should be at the end of #9. Or if you misclick thats fine, just have your save at the beginning of turn #10 then (which is technically turn #11). Confused yet?
For those mathematically challenged, just save your turn at the end of 3640 BC.
Anyway, I think we will do these 10-set turns until around 50 turns deep, then hold a standard vote. This lets everyone prove their worth for their openings, and allows a more critical analysis of what early tactics are under-rated & over-rated.
I will post my first turn-set sample shortly...and BTW, I expect a lot of differences, already I have been very stumped on which builds, etc are the most optimal. In fact Im still not sure! Its that close.
P.S. And everyone knows to only discuss and post their turn-set screen shot(s) in a standard spoiler... right???
So... everyone gets 10 turns per turn-set. And since we start on turn 0, that means your last turn should be at the end of #9. Or if you misclick thats fine, just have your save at the beginning of turn #10 then (which is technically turn #11). Confused yet?
For those mathematically challenged, just save your turn at the end of 3640 BC.
Anyway, I think we will do these 10-set turns until around 50 turns deep, then hold a standard vote. This lets everyone prove their worth for their openings, and allows a more critical analysis of what early tactics are under-rated & over-rated.
I will post my first turn-set sample shortly...and BTW, I expect a lot of differences, already I have been very stumped on which builds, etc are the most optimal. In fact Im still not sure! Its that close.
P.S. And everyone knows to only discuss and post their turn-set screen shot(s) in a standard spoiler... right???
obsolete
Deity
Turns 0-9
Spoiler :
Liquidated
Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!
There's so many ways the random number generator can eff you over (past mere map creation) that the multi start idea sounds good on Deity+ difficulty SG's.
Well least the 3800 BC barb uprising was officially taken out of the bloody game
Looks to be a fun game to lurk.. GL guys!
Cheers!
-Liq
Well least the 3800 BC barb uprising was officially taken out of the bloody game
Looks to be a fun game to lurk.. GL guys!
Cheers!
-Liq
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Turn 0-9
-edit- are we allowed to read each others spoilers once we've played the current turnset? I read Obseletes after I'd posted my own set but realised it was providing me with info I wouldn't otherwise have.
Sorry for the noob SG mistake there, I'm easily excitable and this is my first SG!!!!
-edit- are we allowed to read each others spoilers once we've played the current turnset? I read Obseletes after I'd posted my own set but realised it was providing me with info I wouldn't otherwise have.
Sorry for the noob SG mistake there, I'm easily excitable and this is my first SG!!!!
Spoiler :
PaulisKhan
Physicist
Snaaty/Dirk/Auron postpostpost!!!!
10 turns played and this is already more fun than I've had playing civ in a looooong time. I forgot how much fun it can be >.<
I'm so excitable right now, now where did those smileys go....
want to play more turns
must.... resist.... urge...
also: Lurkers please critique my play in spoilers, I'm in training for SGOTM9 and need to get used to feeling like an idiot
10 turns played and this is already more fun than I've had playing civ in a looooong time. I forgot how much fun it can be >.<
I'm so excitable right now, now where did those smileys go....
want to play more turns
must.... resist.... urge...
also: Lurkers please critique my play in spoilers, I'm in training for SGOTM9 and need to get used to feeling like an idiot
