1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Happiness crash

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by mastrude, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. mastrude

    mastrude Paraclete of Kaborka

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    348
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, ca
    One thing I've never been able to figure out is a sudden catastrophic drop in happiness. I was tooling along, with 8 happiness, healthy income, etc. Suddenly I was at unhappiness 18 one turn and 26 the next. I didn't lose any luxuries . I'm not aware of anything else happening in my civ. What the heck could have happened? This has happened before and I've never understood it.

    There's definitely an unknown factor in the happiness calculation, and I'd sure like to know what it is.
     
  2. Rooftrellen

    Rooftrellen King

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    Location:
    Vitória, Brazil
    Sounds like pressure from other ideologies.
     
  3. lokithepunishr

    lokithepunishr Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    That place West of Japan
    Yeah definitely sounds like ideological pressure. If you click on the tourism icon at the top of your screen you can find how much unhappiness you're receiving from it.
     
  4. Primacide

    Primacide Settler

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    602
    Location:
    California
    One piece of advice: don't switch. Just don't do it. Buy some freakin zoos... But don't switch. I've tried three or four times and it's just never been worth it.
     
  5. m15a

    m15a Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,471
    Ideology pressure is likely since there's no warning about that. Might also be that you lost a city state ally and didn't realize.
     
  6. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,395
    Here's a good basic overview for tourism and how to defend yourself against it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=504903

    You can also hover the Happiness-Icon in the Status-Bar and it will show you all the factors that make your people happy/unhappy.
     
  7. RatesAnalyst

    RatesAnalyst Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    The other possibility is war interfering with the other half of your trade deals.

    If you're trading one spare lux for another spare lux and the other civ loses access to their luxury your deal gets cancelled without telling you about it (there is a little thing at the side, but it's easy to miss).

    If a civ you were trading with lost a major city you could lose two or three deals in one go.

    Same thing applies to city states, too, of course.

    I still think ideology is the more likely.
     
  8. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    480
    I try very hard not to take lux in trade from the AI, but instead get cash and use it to buy happiness.

    The risk is that you think you are fine with 4 happiness but maybe 8 points come from CS allies and 16 from lux trades, if you find yourself in a war you are suddenly down to -12 and heading further into the hole as you lose CS allies. That crashes your economy and your units go into battle with serious negative modifiers.

    If you avoid those deals and take the cash you will struggle to build happiness but then when war comes you will be a LOT more resilient.
     
  9. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,943
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    I am newish to BNW from lots of GnK and I also find that happiness can swing wildly. It is not always ideological pressure.

    That is the opposite of my most recent experience. If I am early to ideologies then I pick Freedom for the 6 free units or Order for the half price factories. Then [if] I switch ideologies for the happiness, I already have the units or factories. Feels like an exploit really. I swear the AI civs choose ideologies based on free SP picks more than any other factor, so I am not sure what I could be doing much differently anyway.

    This is counterproductive. The net result of avoiding lux trades from the AI can only be to the negative. You are deliberately choosing a lower than absolutely necessary happiness set point only for the sake of not being disappointed later. But you are not raising the later happiness set point, so you are passing up low-cost happiness in the meantime.

    How do you use cash to buy happiness anyway? Cash rush zoos? 7gpt for +1 happy per city is bargain by comparison.
     
  10. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,867
    Location:
    In transit
    It could also be a single conquered city.

    Annex a large city (15+ pop) and you will immediately see a swing of -20 or more :c5unhappy:
     
  11. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,395
    Yes, the AI prefers Ideologies with free social policies. That's can also be a good strategy for the player, as long as the ideology works with his strategy.

    But overall I would STRONGLY advice against picking an ideology with the intend to switch to another one later. Most Perks that really help you winning the game are t3-perks and by switching to another ideology you reset your progress to get them. There arestrategies that don't need them, but as a standard strategy that sounds like a really bad idea.
     
  12. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,943
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    That effect I am prepared for, and obviously the timing is under the player's control. Sometimes my happiness swings so much that rebels appear in a single turn. I am sure it is not, but it really feels random and arbitrary sometimes.

    Actually, I completely agree, and I see I miss-typed in my previous reply. I don't pick ideologies planning to switch. It's just that the penalties associated with switching, losing 1-2 SP (but only ones that you got for free anyway) and a couple turns of anarchy, are actually quite mild. I would argue that either the half-price factories or the 6 foreign legions are easily worth that. But I think it is more fun to play to your preferred ideology. So choose your preferred Ideology, but if Order or Freedom, pick up perks you get to keep should you need to switch later. Win-Win.

    Does Autocracy have any SP with lasting benefits like free units or half-cost factories?

    The new ideology also has tier 3 perks that are almost just as good, and maybe better, for 3 out of 4 VC. You are not completely resetting progress, just losing one or two SP you got for free. If you had a bunch, you still have a bunch, and you get to pick them all at once, which can be a significant advantage. Plus maybe your were keeping your VC options open when you first picked an ideology, but by the time you switched you have a path picked out.
     
  13. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,867
    Location:
    In transit
    To add to this, I'm not sure I see the value of 6 free units (really?) and the factories seems to me like I really want the benefit but then you have to build 3 to get it which undermines the benefit, or else get the techs, but seems like the techs make me delay far enough that then I lose the early adopter free policies. So it ends up just being a science bonus, of which there are other ways to get that.

    Plus, there are happy benefits in all the ideologies, which you would lose when you switch out. So I don't quite understand that one either.
     
  14. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    5,943
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    I am pretty tight with the units, so that doubles my army. And they are 6 free units with a unique promotion that you cannot get elsewhere. Also, most of the world are usually only just at Rifling, so the timing for popping 6 GW Infantry is great! And if I get to stay in Freedom, well that is terrific too.

    Oxford for Radio, an OP tip that I learned from this board, is just as fast as hard building 3 factories. Don't get me wrong, I like early adopter free policies! But switching out from Order would loose the science benefit on the factories, so I am not counting upon that. IMHO the single best benefit from Order is the half price factories, so now I play to take advantage of that. And if I get to stay in Order, well that is terrific too.

    Right, there are happy benefits in all the ideologies. What you lose from one Ideology you can make up with the new. (Plus, happiness was the reason to switch in the first place.)

    IMHO the penalty for switching ideologies should be more severe, like what it was with GnK when switching from Piety to Rationalism. Anarchy plus loosing all the Piety benefits and SP picks. As it is, switching means all you loose is a couple turns and SP that you got for free. But you get to keep 6 units or half your factories, and you get to pick new SP to replace any that you bought with culture.
     
  15. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,218
    Location:
    Igloovik
    Usually it's better to keep your ideology, of course, but you can make the best of it if that's not going to happen. Picking the one-and-done tenets like foreign legion is one example. It's better than hopping on the bandwagon and never getting the free tenets to begin with. And if you're going to lose the World Ideology vote, you might as well put one vote for it and make some new friends.

    I tried doing Autocracy futurism to save my skin before, and that turned out to be a lost cause (not enough tourism). But I got all my low-GPP-count guys first and faith-bought all I could, and then switched. I didn't miss futurism when it was gone.
     
  16. unrendered

    unrendered Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 14, 2014
    Messages:
    54
    I think you have to switch sometimes. 20 unhappiness is WAY too rough. It gets worse as you go up the difficulties. On Deity the AI gets ideology on like t160 - t180. That is too early in the game to get that amount of unhappiness. It will cripple your growth, production, science etc. and really every stat in the end so badly that you will not be able to compete with the AI. I'd say on average you start pulling into the lead in tech on about t200 on Deity (the average deity player that is.) You'll just fall behind even more as a result of the unhappiness. Then again there are some people who can win on any victory condition by t200 pretty much so then you probably won't be facing any troubles. :)
     
  17. unrendered

    unrendered Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 14, 2014
    Messages:
    54
    Technically -20 :c5unhappy: is +20 :c5happy: ...heh... :rolleyes:
     
  18. Sessy

    Sessy Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Messages:
    419
    Location:
    Canada
    There's basically one situation where changing ideologies is worth it, IMO, and that's when you have pitiful culture, and good tech so you entered ideologies early, but there's a single culture runaway that you can't deal with (i.e. take their capital) right away who chose another ideology. If there are 2 or more runaways in culture/tourism who chose different ideologies, then changing will not lessen pressure much. Plus for people who say that free tenets and the anarchy are not a big deal, I have to disagree since the free tenets are ALWAYS useful in helping you push to T3, and when timing is crucial, anarchy will wreck your schedule. The reality is that most times when you have a lot of ideological pressure and want to change, it's because you have pathetic culture, which translates to fewer policies, which then means switching will hurt your policies even more because you lost the free ones.
     
  19. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,218
    Location:
    Igloovik
    I don't think it's pathetic culture so much as pathetic tourism; and at immortal/deity that is easy to do.

    But anyway, Order has a good one-and-done Tier 3 tenet.
     
  20. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    480
    In the long run practically everything turns into happiness. Buying culture buildings, buying production buildings, leads to faster acquisition of happy buildings and policies. Faith can also lead to happy depending on whether it can be used to buy pagodas, etc, but it isn't as efficiently converted to happy as culture, hammers, or cash buying stuff. In the early game especially it is better to save for a worker and develop more tiles than to trade for a lux.

    I just find if I concentrate on my own long term development instead of buying short term happy drugs from the AI it eventually takes care of itself. Buying a happy building is a permanent win, whereas paying the AI doesn't compound as much.

    I do sometimes buy happy drugs from the AI, better than going negative happy, but I avoid it when I can stay positive without buying the AI's drugs.
     

Share This Page