Have They (Firaxis) acknowledged anything to anyone?

[blue3c]

zy,
ummmm never said that. I think you are thinking of jedi. sorry.

sad sad reality. But if I have to start waiting until the game hits the bargin shelf to make sure it actually works. I guess thats the plan. I know I know I will be a minority and it will not hit them like I would like it to. But, still, its like being a kid, reaching up to touch the stove and getting burned. Only takes once. And let me tell you that mother is hot.

From the testers to the reviewers, its just not clear. Testers don't test, reviewers are not reviewing, santa is not real and I am not buying.

All is good.

 

[Natronomonas]

Santa's not real!!!???

Well, some kids could be unhappy with Santa's elves for not making a game that works for all of them... maybe those with problems were the naughty ones : )

 

[Zydor]

Quite correct Blu,that was most remiss of me - profuse apologies to you and Jedi

Regards
Zy

 

[Solver]

You'd be surprised... I am seriously amazed at what some people say. How come the beta testers never spotted these technical issues, there was no beta testing done, yadda yadda.

Let me tell you, unless you were on the Civ4 test team, you have no idea of what was going on behind the scenes. So I'd suggest people not to imagine things like there having been no beta testing.

As for the specific technical issues... hah. Unfortunately, there are indeed too many combinations of hardware and software out there. Consider this, if 100 thousand people buy the game as it's released, and 0.1% of them have a severe problem, that's 100 people. They will make a HUGE noise of it here, on Apolyton, elsewhere. And so it happened. If 0.5% have a problem, it gets even crazier. And, if you have a problem that affects every 1000th user, you'd need 1000 beta testers to catch that. Uhmm...

 

[blue3c]

You'd be surprised... I am seriously amazed at what some people say. How come the beta testers never spotted these technical issues, there was no beta testing done, yadda yadda.

Let me tell you, unless you were on the Civ4 test team, you have no idea of what was going on behind the scenes. So I'd suggest people not to imagine things like there having been no beta testing.

As for the specific technical issues... hah. Unfortunately, there are indeed too many combinations of hardware and software out there. Consider this, if 100 thousand people buy the game as it's released, and 0.1% of them have a severe problem, that's 100 people. They will make a HUGE noise of it here, on Apolyton, elsewhere. And so it happened. If 0.5% have a problem, it gets even crazier. And, if you have a problem that affects every 1000th user, you'd need 1000 beta testers to catch that. Uhmm...

Not what I said. I said they did not test the game, they tested a list. Different thing. If you have a list and you are just to look for these things on the list. That is what you do. If you are testing something and have a list. In reality, the list is a guide, not a bible. But it depends on the company paying the tester. What are they requiring. Better yet, I see that they are not even testing with the media that is shipped. Testing on un packed files when you know the files will be packed is not a good testing process.

I have no idea where you come up with this .1% number. It is indeed much higher. But I will not stick to any number because no one has that un biased data. I was referencing a poll in here that was pointed out to me. I am not saying I agree with those numbers. I totally disagree with those numbers. I beleive it to be higher. But I have no proof, so I used an exisiting poll that someone who supports the game used on me to try and make a point.

And combinations of software. What? This is a windows game. win2000 and win xp.
As for combinations of hardware. Hmmmm. Intel, amd. Nvidia, ati. Sound cards are all pretty much creative or based on creative. That leave mem and mobo. Well mem is mem and is not going to need a driver. so we are down to mobo. Different chip sets. Not to many out there. hmmmm.

 

[Solver]

My 0.1% number is somewhat arbitrary - I do not have any means to reliably check the number. I also understand that people who have problems are more likely to post about them than people who have no problems are likely to post about them having no issues. The only method I have of observing is to observe a group of people (regular forum posters) that I know buy Civ4, and that post regardless, not because they have or don't have problems. Among these people, the percentage of those having issues was very low.

The problem indeed would be that sometimes gold builds of the game aren't tested properly. The last build is tested in a hurried envrionment, or on less hardware, or whatever, is declared fit for pressing and goes gold. It happens, unfortunately.

Combinations of software and hardware are many more than you seem to think. Intel? What's that? I don't have Intel here, I have a specific Intel processor, with a specific speed and features, on a specific motherboard. All the different motherboard types and makes, different processors (Athlons, Durons, Pentium IVs, Celerons), over a dozen different video cards in common use... very weird things happen. Sometimes you can have some motherboard being the problem, even. On top of that, add the hundreds of drivers people can have. Video driver, motherboard driver, chipset driver, monitor driver, there are thousands of possible combinations of those. And if you don't think these can have an important effect, you certainly haven't worked in the industry.

 

[Zydor]

Many on this thread do work in software development/testing/release - and I still do - the issues of Release Management of Software are many and complex. They are driven by commercial factors not technology. The realities of todays market place - whether we like it or not - is an increasing number of less PC aware people buying games. That is a hard problem to resolve in the Industry, and there are no simple solutions. But solve them the Industry must. You can no longer put a product on the shelf, get thedosh from little johny who saved up for weeks for it - then tell him wait a few months please whilst we fix the bugs. This is 2005, it dont wash any more, whether there are logical reasons or not.

Flick back a few pages on the thread - this aspect was gone through at length.

Regards
Zy

 

[Solver]

It's driven by both commercial factors and technology now. Because of technology it is now common to have very different computer configurations everywhere. But yes, I acknowledge that game publishers / deadlines are often a huge problem, not allowing for the neccessary time in development. Very, very few companies can decide themselves when to release.

 

[blue3c]

It's driven by both commercial factors and technology now. Because of technology it is now common to have very different computer configurations everywhere. But yes, I acknowledge that game publishers / deadlines are often a huge problem, not allowing for the neccessary time in development. Very, very few companies can decide themselves when to release.

Well thats easy. Realease it when it is done. DOH!
Realease it when you have tested it, this actually means playing the game from the media it will be shipped on and on multiple systems. Playing the game till the end. Looking for the bugs on the list you may or may not have.
If the game fails, hmmm. Just thinking out loud here. Don't ship.
If your testers and staff can not get the product out on time, start throwing the axe.
Deadline are meant to be made. But being flexible and fluid in todays business world will get you far. It keeps your customers happy and if they are happy you make money.
Truthfully it sounds like poor deciesions made by upper manegment. Easily solved. AXE EM.
Come up with some standards.
Stand behind your product. If on the side of your product is says this hardware is required and this is rec, and it doesn't work on it. Who made the deceision to print that. AXE EM. Somebody has to step up. The customer should not have to finish a product he paid good money for. It does not say some assembly required.

 

[Natronomonas]

Combinations of software and hardware are many more than you seem to think. Intel? What's that? I don't have Intel here, I have a specific Intel processor, with a specific speed and features, on a specific motherboard.

x86 instruction set - the processor is not going to make a difference.
Nvidia and ATI both provide unified drivers.
DirectX and Windows *should* be the ones interfacing between the software and hardware... Civ4 shouldn't care about the hardware, just whether WinXP can do what it's asking...

 

[Harkonnen]

Natronomonas
As I've said in patch 1.09 thread (some of my last posts there), oftenly invalid function calls are "silently eaten". This "undefined behavior" is usually different with another set of drivers, video, etc... and usually this stealth "undefined behavior" bugs are shown only when you test it with every other configuration set (including CPU).

BTW, SMAC refused to work with Celeron/Celeron2.

 

[Natronomonas]

OK.... I had a feeling I might be corrected : )

Still, I think that's the way it should work!

 

[warpstorm]

Still, I think that's the way it should work!

That's the way every game developer wishes it did work.

 

[Harkonnen]

blue3c
I know I know I will be a minority and it will not hit them like I would like it to
Macro rules work when micro elements don't think of macro, but follow their own wishes. That said, there is no reason to save something by following the "hive mind". Market won't work if everyone will think about how difficult it is to lower prices, keep quality, blah blah blah and will simply forgive these issues. As long as we live in the world of free market, we shouldn't care about anything except our own opinion about some product.

 

[Padma]

Well thats easy. Realease it when it is done. DOH!
Realease it when you have tested it, this actually means playing the game from the media it will be shipped on and on multiple systems. Playing the game till the end. Looking for the bugs on the list you may or may not have.
If the game fails, hmmm. Just thinking out loud here. Don't ship.
If your testers and staff can not get the product out on time, start throwing the axe.
Deadline are meant to be made. But being flexible and fluid in todays business world will get you far. It keeps your customers happy and if they are happy you make money.
Truthfully it sounds like poor deciesions made by upper manegment. Easily solved. AXE EM.
Come up with some standards.
Stand behind your product. If on the side of your product is says this hardware is required and this is rec, and it doesn't work on it. Who made the deceision to print that. AXE EM. Somebody has to step up. The customer should not have to finish a product he paid good money for. It does not say some assembly required.

Let me just start out by saying that I have been a professional programmer/analyst/engineer for over 20 years. My current position is Software Configuration management. I don't do the testing, myself, we have a test section for that. But a key part of my job is ensuring that what gets released to our customers is exactly the same product that got tested.

That said, we have a fixed release schedule (every six months) driven by factors external to our organization. (What we do is correctly called "sustainment" or "maintenance", because our products already exist; we just make sure our customer can continue to use them.) Our development cycle begins when the customer tells us what he wants in the next release. After the laughter subsides, we then discuss what we can realistically provide. The customer identifies his priorities, and we try to do as much as we can. We can't always make it, and I am often delivering patches for several months after the official delivery. (Admittedly, many of these are not defect repairs, but enhanced capability the customer wants that we didn't have time to include in the initial release.)

Now, our customer is actually very satisfied with our work. It took us several years, but they now understand the level of effort involved in maintaining their software. They also will not come up with more money so we can hire additional people, so they know they are limited in what they can ask for. (You can have it good, or you can have it fast, but you're not going to get both. )

OTOH, another side of the contract I work on, sometimes called "modernization" (they take our products, and convert them to client/server web-enabled apps) is falling behind. They've been working for 18 months, and haven't got any real product to show for their efforts, yet. <ost of them are putting in 60-80 hrs a week (I do 40 - it's enough). Yet, because of cost overruns, they are cutting 30% of the developers next month. But Management is remaining untouched. Management rarely gets "AXED", as you put it. Even if they're at fault. It's even harder when management is a company that has contracted your company to do the work. (E.g., Take2 vs Firaxis.) A lot of developers would love to release software "when it's done". But that doesn't seem to ever work in real life.


Hmm, kind of rambling. I wrote it during breaks at work.

 

[blue3c]

Padma,

Thank you that was informitive. No smart assed remark. Serious. Sounds like you work more in the business side then the gaming side. Working more on applications.
I totally understand the laughter envolved after reading a customers (internal or external) enhancement request. With out getting into details the project I am working on (yes I am also contracted right now), is taking three different applications from three different platforms. Turning them from the basic onsite cleint server to web apps. This includes the wonderful world of mainframe information going away and being entered and edited in the web app. JOY JOY JOY. So yes I understand that part of it. Not to mention the bench work I still do on top of that. bottom line is you can never make the end user happy.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth. Just want to make sure I got your message. But, were you saying that you can replace all the indians you want. But there are still to many chiefs with no knowledge of what really goes on running around? And the chiefs rarely if ever take the fall but love to take all the credit.

If in a nutshell that is what you are saying I agree. Most business are setup that way.

My last post was a little off, I think I was mostly replying to what was said before. Solver keeps defending. I keep attacking. On and on we could go. That post was writen about three hours past my usual get your blank in bed time. The one line I will stand up for in all of it is this.

The customer should not have to finish a product he paid good money for. It does not say some assembly required.

I think what is driving me insane is the complete lack of communication. And I do not mean the

My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night.

I mean here is the official webpage news

Civ IV Recognized in "Best of 2005" Awards 12.20.05
Civilization IV wins "Best of 2005" awards from IGN, GameSpy, and Voodoo Extreme.
[click here for the awards page]

Civilization IV v1.09 Patch Released 11.23.05
The v1.09 patch has been released, featuring multiple gameplay improvements and tweaks. Grab it from the Downloads section.
[click here for the downloads section]

Umm yah. Thats it.

How about a little communication. Here we go how about

"Hey all its Sid and Soren and we understand there are still some of you out there that have some issues with the game. Please keep sending in those error reports and screen shots. We will continue our work on patching any issues that come up. Thank you again for your support and patience."

Yes I said that, not sid, not soren. Not Firaxis, Not Take 2.
I am just saying say something. Anything.

Ok sorry I am rambling again and will stop.

 

[Padma]

I am not trying to put words in your mouth. Just want to make sure I got your message. But, were you saying that you can replace all the indians you want. But there are still to many chiefs with no knowledge of what really goes on running around? And the chiefs rarely if ever take the fall but love to take all the credit.

In a nutshell, yes.

And, FWIW, I would like to see more "official" communication from Firaxis/Take2. After all, that is why our section keeps earning our "Award Fees" ("bonus - for the company"): we keep communication lines open with the customer. "Joe, making the frammistan generate the whoozis is more problematic than we thought. Can we slide that to a patch? If not, something else will have to slide."

 

[warpstorm]

Now that Firaxis is owned by Take2, I would assume that any info released from them has to be cleared through Take2's marketing department.

 

[-EFD-Hitless]

I've posted a few times before, even started this thread, so here is a quick re-cap. Four other fireman and me play games between emergency runs at the firestation to kill our 24 hour shifts. We all have 5 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT systems. Some are home built ultra-fast gaming rigs and a couple are average Dells and HP's. We all have issues running the game. Some have graphic issues, freezing for minutes between turns, some have CTD issues, others have BSOD-reboots, and other issues posted before. So thats 5 out of 5 different systems having problems with only this game, we play many others.
We have sent numerous emails to Firaxis and Take-2, all we get in response is an automated mass email back saying nothing. But, now they have the time to Finally change their home web page to announce all their new awards (see here: http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/awards.htm ). NOTHING about all of us having problems. I personnally take that as a slap in the face. It is now obvious they DO NOT CARE about us, the ones that have already bought the game. They are more concerned with getting more sold for the holiday rush and padding their pockets with more of our money!
I have official un-installed the game and I'am done with it. I even went to Best Buy the other day to get my kid a new game. While I was there looking I saw 3 different set of parents pick up Civ4. I let them know I already bought it with 4 of my friends and I does not work correctly on any of our systems. They all put it down and moved on to something else.
What is really sad is I was a HUGH Civ fan before all of this. What a dissapointment! But, I personnally can't stand giving someone my hard earned money, just for them to slap me in the face and laugh at me.

 

[blue3c]

-EFD-Hitless,

I feel your pain. I thought I should start that way. But, I do have to ask, have you tried installing 1.09 and then Harks patch. Before I did this I was having issues all over the place. CTD, massive lag, locking up the system hard, you name it I have had it happen on many different setups.
Now with Harks patch I can at least play the game. When It does start to lag a little I save and close the app, check my local machine process and restart the app.
I understand you may be playing multi player and I have no idea what problems exist there. I have not tried it with Harks patch. Although weekend after next we are planning on a huge game with 8 people at my place. So I will be able to test it out then.

EDIT: man I can not spell to save my life