What if the BB did not go from "nothing to everything" but from a "uniform everything to diversity"?
Heaven
- Thread starter Berzerker
- Start date
trader/warrior
Deity
From the the perspective of what we know about hunter-gatherer cultures, being led by leaders knowledgeable of the land always searching for greener pastures. A world where one trip might result in "hell", the other abundance and total ecological imbalance associated with the expansion of a new species with a completely new method of exploiting the environment, might not the myth of heaven or paradise arise from the natural goals of migratory people?
We have a lot of evidence that many prehistoric people suffered lives of extreme exertion, while others lived lives of much much more abundance than the early agricultural societies. If we should assign origins for the myth of heaven other than the normal human idea of abundance and pleasure I would think in those terms.
You might say those aren't associated with the heavens, but then neither are many of the ancient creation myths if we remove the abrahamic lens on things from what I can tell. It seems very easy to interpret "if things were on some meta cosmological level it = heavens" but that isn't necessarily the case. With the thread title "heaven" and it seemingly having some basis and connection to the christian concept of heaven, there seems to be very little connection with the creation myths you reference other than you interpreting it as happening up in the sky and counting matching numbers of planets.
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Lexicus
Deity
lmao people ITT replying to Berzerker:
trader/warrior
Deity
Jonathan Frakes is just a bit drunk, your video is obviously selectively edited, he is open to all possibilities!
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The kind of diversity we have now required a generation of supergiant stars to undergo supernova explosions to create everything on the periodic table of elements more complicated than helium.
PhroX
Deity
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And those stars required density fluctuations in the molecular hydrogen that existed prior to them. And that in turn indicates that there were variations in density even before atoms formed. If there ever was uniformity in the universe, it was extremely early but it's certainly possibly that it has been non-uniform since the big bang. (and applying the concept of uniformity to the instant of the big bang itself doesn't really make sense as I understand because singularities are weird - there's no space or time to be uniform across).
So what are the choices for the pre BB state of things?
Nothing?
Primodial singularity?
Infinite uniformity?
String theory stuff?
.
.
In each case our current universe must have a path from it to us.
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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I'll just leave this here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-winds-of-god.634086/page-3#post-15170877
Berzerker
Deity
If we ever get to another planet and 'employ' the natives for labor we wont be sharing hi-tech with them, our own history of colonialism shows what is probably a near universal trait of 'advanced civilizations' - dont teach your subjects how to kill you.
And yet thats how our ancestors often depicted celestial phenomenon. But according to these ancient peoples they interacted with human-like creatures who came from the sky. Thats how the practice of associating these beings with celestial bodies came about.
They represent planets, sheep are 'wanderers' and in some myths the creator acts as a herdsman. In other myths the creator approaches chaos and establishes order.
Velikovsky is a good source for comparative mythology, but his position was Venus entered the solar system recently as a comet-like body and acquired its current orbit. He's misreading the science and the mythology, the Enuma Elish describes the inner solar system predating Heaven and Earth and Venus was present.
One of his scientific sources was a researcher Heiser (Sitchiniswrong) cited - I believe Van Flandern noticed how the planets fit a pattern following a mathematical formula. But he was using the Earth here, the planets form an even more obvious pattern if the Earth is moved to the asteroid belt. Roughly a 2:1 ratio, Venus is 2x Mercury's distance, Mars is 2x Venus and so on.
Only when we get out to Neptune do we find a significant departure from the pattern. Once we get far enough from the Sun building materials diminish enough to end the Apsu's (solar nebula) ability to produce more planets. Seems logical... And there is a logic to the Norse myth of Ymir - he formed where blowing heat met ice. Thats our asteroid belt and researchers have not only found our water came from there, the belt straddles the solar system's frost line - where blowing heat met ice. The inner belt is 'dry' and the outer 'wet'.
Maybe your studies didn't involve ancient cosmologies or the Enuma Elish. Thats too bad, it should be read by anyone entering the field of solar system formation. It argues the planets 'generally' form faster closer to the Sun with one exception, the solar system's 'frostline' can produce a planet even faster. This raises an interesting question, how did Jupiter form before planets closer to the Sun when its twice Ymir's distance.
I'm talking about the invariable planes aligning (or not) with solar equatorial planes. Ours is 3+ degrees with many bodies even further off the Sun's equator. Earth is actually 2nd to Pluto with over 7 degrees. What could have dragged/pushed the Earth away from both planes?
They were required according to our ancestors. Aren't you the least bit curious how evolutionary changes that happened ~200,000 years ago became a curse for women giving birth? Larger heads thru smaller birth canals, a product of the transformation of Adam and Eve into anatomically modern humans with the knowledge of good and evil.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
wat
no
this has actually been explained by evolutionary theory, even i know that
i'm baffled by the books you choose to read and believe. :l
it's good to see from manfred belheim that you've been on this ride since 2018, so i guess it settles that you aren't trolling
Lexicus
Deity
This man can't even do a goddamn orbital equation
Holy crap... tracing the threads back to the one in 2016, and it went 89 PAGES?
And I traced these same nonsensical things he's been saying back well over a decade on Apolyton (where he wasn't getting a hell of a lot of support either).
I was making a Dune reference (specifically God Emperor of Dune). Ridulian crystals are a way to transfer thought directly from the mind to a kind of permanent storage device. No physical act of writing is necessary, nor is speech. Just think and your thoughts will be recorded.
Ridulian crystals are not a weapon.
You are trying to 'splain this to an anthropology major. I've studied plenty of ancient civilizations where people associated the stars, planets, and moons with gods and people and some civilizations gave the gods they created very human-like personalities, goals, and motives (which is why so many of us can relate to the Greek myths; the Greek gods are just like us, with magical powers).
And sometimes sheep are just friggin' sheep. I'm reminded of a group poetry interpretation exercise I had to do in Grade 12. Our teacher was fond of including religious passages from her favorite version of the bible in our classes (not ethical in a public school, but this was pre-Charter days, when she could have failed us for not interpreting things using a religious slant and we wouldn't have been able to call her on religious discrimination)... so my fellow group members immediately decided that of course we were supposed to interpret the horses in the poem as symbolic of some event that had happened in the New Testament.
I just looked at them and said, "They're not representing Jesus and the apostles. They're just horses, and the poem takes place in the aftermath of World War III" (this class was in 1979, during the Cold War; WWIII was part of both the English and Social Studies curriculum in Grade 12).
My classmates couldn't wrap their minds around that, and fortunately the teacher came along and told them to listen to me, saying, "She's right."
Velikovsky is a good source of kindling if you need to start a campfire or contribute old paper for recycling. I read that stuff back in junior high school, and after realizing how ridiculous it is, all such peudoscience crap in the house went into the recycling bin.
I can see the "WTF" expression on my astronomy instructor's face if I were to write to him and tell him that back in the '90s, he denied us this monumental chance to throw out our modern textbooks and other sources and instead of studying astrophysics and watching the ISS and the comets at night, we should have been reading Babylonian pseudoscience!
It's really mindcroggling, how you think you're more knowledgeable than someone with multiple doctorates (real ones, not the diploma-mill kind) who taught astronomy, organic chemistry, and a host of other science courses at the college I attended. I suppose you'd like to take a crack at my anthropology profs, the history profs, and the physical/cultural geography profs, as well - because NOT ONE of them said a single syllable about this Babylonian myth nonsense. The only teacher I did have who mentioned it - and said it was nonsense - was my high school anthropology teacher.
You know, this is the sort of question that keeps me from having a good night's/morning's sleep (morning, actually, since I'm a night owl). I should discuss it with my doctor next time we talk.
There's not one shred of proof that space aliens were ever here, let alone having any influence whatsoever over human evolution.
Human females' birth issues are unfortunate for those who have died because their birth canals could not accommodate a larger fetus, and I sincerely hope that this is something that can be remedied some day. But it's not actually a problem that has applied to me personally, as I have never reproduced nor felt the need to reproduce.
As for this "good and evil"/Adam & Eve obsession of yours... I know how to look up an online bible if I want to read about it. If I want to hear preaching about it, there's a church just across the parking lot from where I live. I can see it from the window of the room I'm sitting in right now. I do not need any more of this proselytizing, thankyouverymuch.
Berzerker
Deity
I wouldn't bet my life on it either way, but I would wager money. I believe it is more likely true than not.
What is the conspiracy? Are you pushing stuff as fact? Are the others? What did I claim was a fact?
How did I diminish their achievements? Aren't you calling them liars? Or, ignorant rubes? You're defending the honor of ancient peoples by dismissing their beliefs as BS. They said these sky people created them and taught them about the heavens. They said 'aliens did it'.
You accused me of believing every conspiracy theory involving Hillary but cant name one and now you're lecturing me about tedious assertions.
Where is that spot?
Dont variations in the background radiation argue against uniformity? If BBs are followed by big crunches, maybe the next BB wont need to gobble everything up. Maybe the universe will end up as a bunch of super massive black holes swirling toward the center and some wont make it when the next BB is triggered. Debris from an earlier universe might account for that diversity so the 'singularity' could still be uniform.
what has been explained?
Oh, please. You've been claiming this nonsense as factual for YEARS.
It's pictures of animals. That's it.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
What do you mean?
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
the hips/head ratio (which is dangerous for human females during birth) is a consequence of getting larger brains after standing upright. it's a simple mutation. the danger it poses to females is nutrientally compensated by the capability of adult humans to attain and maintain nutrients; it was evolutionarily worth it to lose nutrients within the species (through female death during childbirth) as a tradeoff of the sheer capability of adult humans to attain nutrients within the species, following our advanced brains and our unique bodily design - which gave way to the larger brain to begin with.
due to us standing up like we do, we don't run fast, but we can run for much longer than most other animals that are sprinters. a large brain costs a lot of energy to maintain, but we evolved into it due to being able to run anything down, basically, without expending a lot of energy. that with our ability to identify and eat a vast variety of high energy foods, and having a really good digestive system, allowed us a lot of energy. over time, being able to amass so much energy made it so larger brains were possible, and as evolution happened and made random mutations, the larger brains were both able to amass their needed nutrients and then some, and won out in the gene pool. all of this compensates genetically for the dangers of childbirth.
this all makes a lot of sense according to literally any biological and chemical principle we have learned about. infact, it makes so much sense it's incredibly hard to really dispute. a random space steroid injection doesn't fit anything we know about biology, since similar evolutionary leaps have happened numerous times, it's demonstratedly something that happens. especially the moon logic about adam and eve you try to syncretize into thousands of ideas that have nothing to do with the biblical model of creation - it's nonsense. use occam's razor
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