Hegemon
- Thread starter Rambuchan
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Rambuchan
The Funky President
Hubba hubba.
Damn fine work!
Damn fine work!
geminisama
Resident Batman
geminisama - I promised you some explanation of the 'palace air trade' trick that will come with the upgrade and here it is:
Basically, one of the things that happens during the inbetween turns is the computer calculates all the possible trade routes in the game. When you have a lot of civs, with a lot of cities and thus a lot of harbours conducting sea trade, and on top of that a lot of tiles, this takes quite some time and thus you get lengthy inbetween turn times.
So, one of the tricks to pull off to get those turn times down (and I've implemented many others already in the released biq) is to reduce the 'points at which trade is conducted'. In other words, get rid of sea trading altogether. Instead, you set the palace to conduct air trade. This means trading is effectively done out of just one city per civ and all that computer calculation work is very much reduced.
Now there are of course consequences in doing this and that's why I initially held off doing it. The two consequences of significance are:
(1) Your palace acts as the trade hub for your whole empire. If a city isn't connected by roads to your capital then it doesn't get any luxuries or resources that are coming into your trade network. So do bear this in mind when the upgrade comes. It's not too big a deal actually.
(2) Islands are obviously a problem when doing this, as you can't connect them to your capital by roads and harbours ain't an option either. Given the Aegean and Mediterranean as the setting for this scenario, I was naturally very concerned about this. The workaround for this, however, is to bring in improvements that allow air trade - but only on the islands, so you don't have too many trade routes coming back into the game for the computer to calculate. (My hearty thanks to King Coltrane for suggesting this workaround).
That's why the upgrade will have the "Islanders" resource you can see in the screenies I posted above. They appear only on islands (of course!) and the improvements that allow air trade on these islands require them within the city radius. Once you've built these improvements, your island holdings will then be able to trade (via air) with your capital and thus luxuries and those key Hegemonic Resources can be accessed by the rest of your empire.
At present, I've called these island trading improvements "Exchanges". It's a pretty lame name and I'd be open to suggestions from others for a better name for them.
Hope that makes things clearer
7Ronin - Many thanks for the LH input. Very helpful in filling in some gaps.
If I can find a suitable free LH for Phillip II then I will go with him. The whole Hegemonic Victory is very much designed around what he achieved anyway. Definitely going with the sexy Angelina Jolie styled Queen Teuta. What's wrong with that?
Thanks for the explanation, that idea sounds good and I can't wait for the new update!
7ronin
海軍少佐
Here's my..."interpretation"...of Penelope.
Forget about the chiton. It doesn't look like she's wearing anything. Small wonder all those suitors were hanging around. Ditto that "hubba hubba!"
Penelope is now available to download. I hope you like her and have her in the mod as the Ithaka leader .
.
7ronin
海軍少佐
You certainly created Penelope in a hurry. I'm going to have to invent a country in the Ancient India scenario so I can use her.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
My. Oh. My!
What a delightful Sunday morning surprise! Thank you!
She is outstanding, Rob. I am most certainly definitely surely positively putting her in the mod. I think she'll be a great incerntive for players to explore the Ionian Sea and to keep checking in for a chit chat at the magical and enchanting island of Ithaka.
I've been fairly busy this weekend. But before it kicked in I made a bit of progress going through LHs and assigning them to leaders in Hegemon. I thought I'd get your (and other people's) opinion on some of the choices I've provisionally made.
- How about your Alfred The Great for Agamemnon? It's a great LH. Very moody and atmospheric and a bobbydazzler of a beard. Quite a good likeness to the depictions of Agamemnon that people are familiar with too. I also reckon that, as the Mycenae is a civ in Hegemon that's old and had its day, the moodiness and comparatively darker palatte would be a very good option to go for here. Whadja reckon?
- I'm struggling to find a LH to use for Phillip II of Macedon. Hopefully some that are out there come to mind. The more I think about it, the more: (a) I know 7Ronin is right that he'd be the one to go for as the Macedonian leader (b) I realise that Phillip II of Macedon was a truly outstanding leader of his time, effectively setting Alexander up for his glories and (c) that he is The Hegemon that I've designed the whole Hegemonic victory around (ie. his control of the Greeks via what we now call the League of Cornith).
Anyway, the closest I could find to someone looking like Phillip II was Embryodead's Basil II of the Byzantine Empire. It's an outstanding LH from another outstanding artist here. I think the facial structure and features and expressions would be really good for Phillip in this. Very distinctive. But the crown and background is clearly not suitable and the beard ain't curly enough. I don't know if embryodead's around anymore. That's as close as I got really. Lol. Maybe you've done something that's more appropriate, or there's something else out there?
I've run out of time now. But I'll get back and summarise the other provisional LH decisions later in the day. Mighty thanks again. She is beee-oooo-tiful!!!
What a delightful Sunday morning surprise! Thank you!
She is outstanding, Rob. I am most certainly definitely surely positively putting her in the mod. I think she'll be a great incerntive for players to explore the Ionian Sea and to keep checking in for a chit chat at the magical and enchanting island of Ithaka.
I've been fairly busy this weekend. But before it kicked in I made a bit of progress going through LHs and assigning them to leaders in Hegemon. I thought I'd get your (and other people's) opinion on some of the choices I've provisionally made.
- How about your Alfred The Great for Agamemnon? It's a great LH. Very moody and atmospheric and a bobbydazzler of a beard. Quite a good likeness to the depictions of Agamemnon that people are familiar with too. I also reckon that, as the Mycenae is a civ in Hegemon that's old and had its day, the moodiness and comparatively darker palatte would be a very good option to go for here. Whadja reckon?
- I'm struggling to find a LH to use for Phillip II of Macedon. Hopefully some that are out there come to mind. The more I think about it, the more: (a) I know 7Ronin is right that he'd be the one to go for as the Macedonian leader (b) I realise that Phillip II of Macedon was a truly outstanding leader of his time, effectively setting Alexander up for his glories and (c) that he is The Hegemon that I've designed the whole Hegemonic victory around (ie. his control of the Greeks via what we now call the League of Cornith).
Anyway, the closest I could find to someone looking like Phillip II was Embryodead's Basil II of the Byzantine Empire. It's an outstanding LH from another outstanding artist here. I think the facial structure and features and expressions would be really good for Phillip in this. Very distinctive. But the crown and background is clearly not suitable and the beard ain't curly enough. I don't know if embryodead's around anymore. That's as close as I got really. Lol. Maybe you've done something that's more appropriate, or there's something else out there?
I've run out of time now. But I'll get back and summarise the other provisional LH decisions later in the day. Mighty thanks again. She is beee-oooo-tiful!!!
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Here's where I've gotten to with assigning new leader heads, with the new names and titles for the upgrade.
Four gaps still exist:
- Chalkidike: Both name and LH.
- Troy: LH for King Priamos.
- Caria: LH for King Mausolos
- Macedonia: LH for Phillip II, who I'd love to go with but haven't found anything suitable.
Corrections and suggestions most welcome.
Four gaps still exist:
- Chalkidike: Both name and LH.
- Troy: LH for King Priamos.
- Caria: LH for King Mausolos
- Macedonia: LH for Phillip II, who I'd love to go with but haven't found anything suitable.
Corrections and suggestions most welcome.
Spoiler :
7ronin
海軍少佐
Let's look to the movies for inspiration about Phillip II. Val Kilmer played him in 2004. I don't think Kilmer was very convincing and he certainly didn't look like what we expect Phillip to have looked like. Fredric March played him in 1956 (Richard Burton was Alexander). March looked and acted like a king and the jealousy he felt for his son dripped from every pore.
That's Phillip on the right.
That's Phillip on the right.
Attachments
Rambuchan
The Funky President
I preferred Val Kilmer as Jim Morrison. I'd loved to see the Burton / March film. I could search for the title but, for the sake of sociability, what was it called?
Here are some good images of Phillip II.
Here are some good images of Phillip II.
7ronin
海軍少佐
The title is Alexander the Great. DVD copies are available on Amazon.com starting at 39 cents (US). Lots of great stars besides Burton and March: Claire Bloom, Harry Andrews, Danielle Darrieux, Stanley Baker, Niall McGinnis, Peter Cushing, Michael Hordern, and Helmut Dantine, among others. This is not the greatest movie in the world but it is on my list of guilty pleasures.
Virote_Considon
The Great Dictator
Some titles/leader names I've used in my Greek scenario at various points in time:
Thebes: Boeotarch Epaminondas?
Elis: Basileus Oxylus or Laias?
Argos: Archon or Turannos for Pheidon instead of King?
Crete: For a post-Aegean era leader, how about Battus of Cyrene. Born on Thera (more or less under Cretan control) and founder of Cyrene in North Africa (considered by many a Cretan colony, and with historically close links with Crete)
For Ionia, there's always the Tyrant Polycrates who rules Samos, although he could just as well work as a Military Great Leader
One point I noticed briefly from playing, the starting (most basic) government is Tyranny. Tyranny was quite a latter development (somewhat paired with the introduction of hoplites) and was representative of the wider social upheavals of the time (such as Democracy in Athens, the Spartan Diarchy/support for Oligarchy) - perhaps to be considered more along the lines of Enlightened Absolutism as a transition from Feudal Monarchy. A more basic form of government ought to be something more along the lines of Aristocratic Chiefdom or somesuch?
Thebes: Boeotarch Epaminondas?
Elis: Basileus Oxylus or Laias?
Argos: Archon or Turannos for Pheidon instead of King?
Crete: For a post-Aegean era leader, how about Battus of Cyrene. Born on Thera (more or less under Cretan control) and founder of Cyrene in North Africa (considered by many a Cretan colony, and with historically close links with Crete)
For Ionia, there's always the Tyrant Polycrates who rules Samos, although he could just as well work as a Military Great Leader
One point I noticed briefly from playing, the starting (most basic) government is Tyranny. Tyranny was quite a latter development (somewhat paired with the introduction of hoplites) and was representative of the wider social upheavals of the time (such as Democracy in Athens, the Spartan Diarchy/support for Oligarchy) - perhaps to be considered more along the lines of Enlightened Absolutism as a transition from Feudal Monarchy. A more basic form of government ought to be something more along the lines of Aristocratic Chiefdom or somesuch?
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Thanks dear 7Ronin, I'll grab a copy and watch that some time.
Virote! I was wondering when you were going to bless us with your wisdom on all this. Good to hear from you and thank you for the input. Very much appreciated.
Titles & Names:
I found I do have a note here to use Boeotarch as Epaminondas's title. It's entirely appropriate. Thanks for reminding me. The change has been made.
Good suggestion of Oxylus for Elis. He seems suitable. I will read up some more and most likely put him in.
Pheidon, although a figurehead, does seem to have ruled in the style of a King. So I'll probably stick with that. But you've made me aware of Turannos as a term. Is it basically the same as saying Tyrant?
What about Etearchus (Eteachos) as the leader for Crete? He was Battus's maternal grandfather and King of Oaxus, a seemingly wealthy city on Crete. Battus seems more appropriate for Cyclades if anything. Going for Eteachos (given the story Herodotus tells of him wanting to rid himself of his daughter, Phromina, Battus's mother) would set up a nice little detail of a 'rub' between Crete and the Cyclades civ, which could be put into their pedia civ write ups, not that many would notice anyway lol.
Do you have any ideas for leaders and titles for Chalkidike? Thucydides goes on about the conflict of interest in the area as one of the key causes of the Peloponnesian War, but he mentions no names of leaders of the area and cities there, just commanders and kings of Athens, Sparta or Macedonia. So I'm a bit stumped here.
Governments:
Yeah, it's true what you say and also a bit tricky to implement. Thucydides does mention that the move to Tyranny (although hampered by the self interests of the tyrants) did allow the accumulation of capital and resources and, in short, better progress. But getting everything perfectly historical can go too far and result in paralysis or overload. I was wary of creating too many government types, so resigned myself here as just one of those things I had to drop for the sake of gameplay. But I'm open to your advices here. So that I've understood you properly, are you basically suggesting:
- Aristocratic Chiefdom (I like that. Spot on!): Starting, most basic government.
- Tyranny: I originally had this coming from the tech slot I deleted from the tree (arrow is still there, pointing to nothing). Just put it back.
- Monarchy: From Kingship as is.
- Diarchy: From Kingship as is.
The problem I had (alongside gameplay considerations), which caused me to just ignore a government prior to Tyranny, was trying to come up with worthwhile and meaningful differences in these governments. I'm really not too hot on this part of things, so any help and advice you can provide on appropriate settings for each government would be greatly appreciated.
Virote! I was wondering when you were going to bless us with your wisdom on all this. Good to hear from you and thank you for the input. Very much appreciated.
Titles & Names:
I found I do have a note here to use Boeotarch as Epaminondas's title. It's entirely appropriate. Thanks for reminding me. The change has been made.
Good suggestion of Oxylus for Elis. He seems suitable. I will read up some more and most likely put him in.
Pheidon, although a figurehead, does seem to have ruled in the style of a King. So I'll probably stick with that. But you've made me aware of Turannos as a term. Is it basically the same as saying Tyrant?
What about Etearchus (Eteachos) as the leader for Crete? He was Battus's maternal grandfather and King of Oaxus, a seemingly wealthy city on Crete. Battus seems more appropriate for Cyclades if anything. Going for Eteachos (given the story Herodotus tells of him wanting to rid himself of his daughter, Phromina, Battus's mother) would set up a nice little detail of a 'rub' between Crete and the Cyclades civ, which could be put into their pedia civ write ups, not that many would notice anyway lol.
Do you have any ideas for leaders and titles for Chalkidike? Thucydides goes on about the conflict of interest in the area as one of the key causes of the Peloponnesian War, but he mentions no names of leaders of the area and cities there, just commanders and kings of Athens, Sparta or Macedonia. So I'm a bit stumped here.
Governments:
Yeah, it's true what you say and also a bit tricky to implement. Thucydides does mention that the move to Tyranny (although hampered by the self interests of the tyrants) did allow the accumulation of capital and resources and, in short, better progress. But getting everything perfectly historical can go too far and result in paralysis or overload. I was wary of creating too many government types, so resigned myself here as just one of those things I had to drop for the sake of gameplay. But I'm open to your advices here. So that I've understood you properly, are you basically suggesting:
- Aristocratic Chiefdom (I like that. Spot on!): Starting, most basic government.
- Tyranny: I originally had this coming from the tech slot I deleted from the tree (arrow is still there, pointing to nothing). Just put it back.
- Monarchy: From Kingship as is.
- Diarchy: From Kingship as is.
The problem I had (alongside gameplay considerations), which caused me to just ignore a government prior to Tyranny, was trying to come up with worthwhile and meaningful differences in these governments. I'm really not too hot on this part of things, so any help and advice you can provide on appropriate settings for each government would be greatly appreciated.
Virote_Considon
The Great Dictator
Yeah, it's just the Ancient Greek word for Tyrant (see: Tyrannosaurus, made up of the words in Ancient Greek for "Tyrant Lizard". And then Tyrannosaurus Rex, where they added Latin for consistencies' sake
).Sounds good like it could work!
I'm afraid not - the Athenian/Spartan/Macedonian leaders are as far as I could find out as well. Perhaps a Trojan War hero from Thrace could suffice? Rhesus seems the most notable from those in the general Northern Aegean area, from a brief wiki check at least.
What you could do is make Tyranny fairly crap (tile penalty, forced resettlement, problematic or rampant corruption, terrible resistance+propaganda modifiers, etc.) maybe even bad unit support (i.e. the Tyrants in Athens such as Peisistratus having to rely on Scythian mercenaries as military police) BUT make their improvements/wonders require no maintenance - representing that in a lot of cases, Tyrants tended to be patrons of the arts and sciences in their cities. Crummy government if you find yourself in a scrap, but if cash is strapped and you're already in the midst of social upheaval - but otherwise at peace with your neighbors - it could be useful.
Just an idea though, I'll try to devote more time to thinking around the issue when such time becomes available
7ronin
海軍少佐
There are several other movies you should watch to put you in the mood. Troy (2004). Not the best of epics, it is still worth it to watch all those great British actors chewing the scenery. Ulysses (1954) has Kirk Douglas in the starring role with Silvana Magnano in dual roles as Circe and Penelope. The we have Helen of Troy (1956) with more British actors and appearances by Rosanna Podesta (Helen) and Brigitte Bardot (hubba hubba).
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
One way I get to know a new scenario is by playing by one of the more unlikely civs that still has a decent shot at a low difficulty level. Played a couple of games as Troy. Most recently been having fun as Crete. Here's a composite screenshot of the empire as of 520 BC. At war with Thevai. They took a city in the North and razed a couple of other minor ones. But I've got RoP straight to their capital and am now busy shipping units like crazy.
Spoiler :
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Hi there, just to let you all know I've been making good progress with the upgrade, though work and family have slowed it a bit this week.
I am, nevertheless, marching on. I've sorted out the implementation of those Tribal Resources and the camps that come with them, which I mentioned already. This will very much align the civs to their historical homelands and challenges more, as well as provide more strategic gameplay.
I've also come up with what I'm pretty sure is a good technique to bring in more of the challenges and details of both the Peloponnesian Wars and the Hegemonic struggles that came after. It's fairly straight forward for the players but a bit fiendish in the planning stage to make sure gameplay balance works. But that will be coming too, together will all kinds of other tweaks I've been making here and there. So the upgrade will drift more towards historical scenario and be less of a freeform mod than this version is. I'm fairly sure that will be a very good thing.
The thing that will really take time to sort out though is cleaning up all the upgrade paths. I'd very much appreciate folk pointing out any cracks they spot here. Namely, units not upgrading in a sensible way, or old units sticking around in the build list when better ones are available.
I'd also appreciate advice, ideas and pointers on the various other things I've requested eagle eyes on previously in this thread. I'm happy to take on any complaints and criticisms, however minor, to improve things for the upgrade. I aim to sort everything out, as far as possible, and get it all out in one release.
----
Virote - Thanks for the lingo lesson and also the ideas on the Tyranny government. I'm considering those options and will see what I can do. Any further thoughts and wisdom most welcome of course. I'm happy to offer anything I can for your Ancient Greek scenario too, of course.
7Ronin - Thanks for the film tips my good man. It's a good list you've given, especially as you've squeezed Bridgette Bardot in there. But couldn't you have come up with something that has Elizabeth Taylor in!?!?!
Blue Monkey Man - I like your approach. I too find it interesting going for the lesser civs and experiencing things from another angle. You're the first to post that has NOT loaded up as either Sparta or Athens!! Anyway, it's with players like you in mind that I'm big on allowing all civs to be playable and looking at their experience. Good for the old re-play factor. Thanks for the screenie. It's very helpful to see what's been happening in other people's games, especially when tweaks are happening. Just wondering if you've got any gripes, comments or ideas to share please. I'm also wondering who had settled those islands towards the mainland that you've captured and what big wars, if any, have kicked off. I'm keen to take those all on board for the upgrade. You'll see as you get further into the game that, in the spirit of the epics, this is very much a slow burner that builds up into serious carnage in the late game. It all starts happening in the Classical Era really and the Hegemonic Era is when the men are separated from the boys.
I am, nevertheless, marching on. I've sorted out the implementation of those Tribal Resources and the camps that come with them, which I mentioned already. This will very much align the civs to their historical homelands and challenges more, as well as provide more strategic gameplay.
I've also come up with what I'm pretty sure is a good technique to bring in more of the challenges and details of both the Peloponnesian Wars and the Hegemonic struggles that came after. It's fairly straight forward for the players but a bit fiendish in the planning stage to make sure gameplay balance works. But that will be coming too, together will all kinds of other tweaks I've been making here and there. So the upgrade will drift more towards historical scenario and be less of a freeform mod than this version is. I'm fairly sure that will be a very good thing.
The thing that will really take time to sort out though is cleaning up all the upgrade paths. I'd very much appreciate folk pointing out any cracks they spot here. Namely, units not upgrading in a sensible way, or old units sticking around in the build list when better ones are available.
I'd also appreciate advice, ideas and pointers on the various other things I've requested eagle eyes on previously in this thread. I'm happy to take on any complaints and criticisms, however minor, to improve things for the upgrade. I aim to sort everything out, as far as possible, and get it all out in one release.
----
Virote - Thanks for the lingo lesson and also the ideas on the Tyranny government. I'm considering those options and will see what I can do. Any further thoughts and wisdom most welcome of course. I'm happy to offer anything I can for your Ancient Greek scenario too, of course.
7Ronin - Thanks for the film tips my good man. It's a good list you've given, especially as you've squeezed Bridgette Bardot in there. But couldn't you have come up with something that has Elizabeth Taylor in!?!?!
Blue Monkey Man - I like your approach. I too find it interesting going for the lesser civs and experiencing things from another angle. You're the first to post that has NOT loaded up as either Sparta or Athens!! Anyway, it's with players like you in mind that I'm big on allowing all civs to be playable and looking at their experience. Good for the old re-play factor. Thanks for the screenie. It's very helpful to see what's been happening in other people's games, especially when tweaks are happening. Just wondering if you've got any gripes, comments or ideas to share please. I'm also wondering who had settled those islands towards the mainland that you've captured and what big wars, if any, have kicked off. I'm keen to take those all on board for the upgrade. You'll see as you get further into the game that, in the spirit of the epics, this is very much a slow burner that builds up into serious carnage in the late game. It all starts happening in the Classical Era really and the Hegemonic Era is when the men are separated from the boys.
the movie is on Youtube. Now.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
The island grab came from racing to the naval techs. Got there before anyone else. What's funny is that in the turns immediately after that Sparta decided to attack me on several fronts. The joke is on them so far though. They went after the least defended islands. Meanwhile I had been building up large amphibious and infantry carrier strike forces. Made peace with Thevai and went after their heartland - allied with mainland civs like Argos & Athens. 
Unfortunately - for this researching this scenario - Liz was dividing her time between Alexandria & Rome and Sophia was visiting the Danube. compared to that last the remake eats crow, imho. And has some ideas worthy of units as yet unmade for C3.
Unfortunately - for this researching this scenario - Liz was dividing her time between Alexandria & Rome and Sophia was visiting the Danube. compared to that last the remake eats crow, imho. And has some ideas worthy of units as yet unmade for C3.
Rathvilly
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2007
- Messages
- 152
Hi finished a game on Monarch as Athens really good concept and love the civlopedia its great to see all the thought and research thats gone into this. Have to admit I didnt win obtained six of the prerequisites but to get the last two wouldve required some insane wars near game end. I ended up the major power followed by Lydia, Thrace (a monster) , Sparta. Macedon was crushed earlier in the game. I dared not go after Sparta at game end I had 750 units and I was weak compared to them ! I just kept them bottled up in the Peloponese after they booted me out of stray cities I held there they came at me with multiple stacks of eighty plus and I just didnt have enough units to take them all out.
The game plays really well the second half was slower but hey turn time were faster than when I play RFRE. Some random thoughts possibly Athens should have some sort of commercial victory by returning treasures from a Delian League wonder or similar. I did wonder about the length of the game going at a moderate pace I finished the tech tree around turn 357. This wasnt major but Id got most units by 500BC perhaps slow down the tech pace, or make some techs non-tradeable or extremely costly ? Or possibly tinker with the chronology. Not a biggie but I suppose itd be cool to get your classical units in the 5th century. I did wonder about a land bridge over the Hellespont possibly only available at certain point (unlocking terrain with an engineer unit or similar) but unsure as Lydia and Phyrgia have the capacity to destroy everything in their path ! Anyway this was really good and Im looking forward to playing again
The game plays really well the second half was slower but hey turn time were faster than when I play RFRE. Some random thoughts possibly Athens should have some sort of commercial victory by returning treasures from a Delian League wonder or similar. I did wonder about the length of the game going at a moderate pace I finished the tech tree around turn 357. This wasnt major but Id got most units by 500BC perhaps slow down the tech pace, or make some techs non-tradeable or extremely costly ? Or possibly tinker with the chronology. Not a biggie but I suppose itd be cool to get your classical units in the 5th century. I did wonder about a land bridge over the Hellespont possibly only available at certain point (unlocking terrain with an engineer unit or similar) but unsure as Lydia and Phyrgia have the capacity to destroy everything in their path ! Anyway this was really good and Im looking forward to playing again
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