help a gal learn how to dominate

[DragonHawk]

Too bad you turn off barbarians. Since Boudica is Agg/Chm, getting units to lvl4 is a breeze with barb helps. By the time you are ready for knocking down AI, you should have a few units with CityRaiderIII, very scary

How fast do you want to start the wars ?
As quickly as possible, go mining -> BW route
Develop a bit first, go Agr -> AH route

 

[Pe Ell]

Only bad advice in this topic.

Hell, change "early warmongering" to "anything at all" and it's still bad.

Since it was me who said it I have to ask: why? Why would whipping be a bad thing? I tend to whip all the time early on to transfer food excess into hammers and get cultural buildings up fast in cities I capture. Also helps to get rid of that annoying "we yearn to get to our motherland".

Also I think it's a bit rude to say it's a bad advice without stating any reason.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

You have run the slavery civic to do it, which in BtS constantly kicks your captial in the balls with the random slave revolt events. (It's also medium upkeep, but that's a pretty minor drawback)

Whipping isn't even that great unless you're so short on workers that a bunch of your citizens are working blank tiles, which shouldn't be the case. Working mines, workshops, etc. > killing their workers for a slightly quicker build time.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Slavery is the fastest way to get a university into a grasslands river city with plenty of food but no hills. Workshops suck until you get chemistry and state property. Watermills suck until you get replaceable parts, and even then they're not fantastic until levees and electricity.

I rarely whip units, unless I desperately need defenders, but whipping infrastructure is a no brainer.

 

[DragonHawk]

You have run the slavery civic to do it, which in BtS constantly kicks your captial in the balls with the random slave revolt events. (It's also medium upkeep, but that's a pretty minor drawback)

Whipping isn't even that great unless you're so short on workers that a bunch of your citizens are working blank tiles, which shouldn't be the case. Working mines, workshops, etc. > killing their workers for a slightly quicker build time.

Monkeyfinger, if Slavery is so bad, why did Firaxis change the upkeep from low to medium and attach the revolt random event to it ??

Really, the revolt does not happen that often. Plus, what's the worst thing that can happen, 1 turn revolt ?

Whipping accelerate the creation of buildings/units. The key is to know when to whip and have enough food to bring back the whipped populations. Plus you get overflow to use for the next build to compensate for the lost population.

 

[bluedevil99]

Er, I'll disagree with Monkeyfinger on slavery. In this particular game, it's not less crucial because the capital doesn't have a big food surplus and there are plenty of trees to chop. Depending on where we park cities #2 and 3 I may even avoid it due to the stupid random events. For starts with multiple early food resources and not many treest (e.g. many coastal starts) slavery is almost necessary for effective early rushing.

 

[Wantanabe]

The worker will take 15 turns, researching ag will take 8, AH 10. Maybe I missed something but the Celts start with Hunting right? So your worker could farm the floodplain, build a camp on the ivory (city will have expanded by then) and then start on the cattle resource while you research BW.

Some things about domination; is it's easier with help, so diplomacy and bribing can be significant. If there are one or two other superpowers Dominate the weaker first and then vassalize, automatic war allies. If attacking a strong opponent on a foriegn continent it often helps to raze all his coastal cities first. This is easier than it seems as your navy can weaken city defenses, this is of course much easier using Marines and you probably won't be attacking foriegn continents much before then anyway. Without Coastal cities you enemys will not be able to build naval units or attack you period, in most cases.

Horse units with the morale promotion (needs a GG) are good for razing roads around your SoD, stopping enemy artillery in thier tracks, very useful when occupying a city on another continent.

 

[Validator]

Hmmm, mining-BW in a food low city? I would prefer Agri-AH-mining-BW. The floodplain needs to be farmed with so little food. The cows are needed to and deliver the so needed food and hammers. Then start building mines because you can't even work them otherwise.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting mining->BW so that mines could be built early. I was thinking that with this starting position the only way to get off to a fast start is via chopping. The FP farm and cow pasture will both only give one additional food, so they're not going to help the growth situation much.

Of course since this is Noble a fast start isn't really necessary I guess, so I don't have a problem with starting with Agr.->AH. But if that is the early tech plan I would suggest the initial build be a worker since Agr. will be done before the worker is.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

As a general suggestion:

When you get your first two Chariots or Axes ready, have them camp outside your intended victim and wait for his hapless Archer and Settler (read: "your Worker") to wander out. It's easier to take an Archer in the open (or on a bare hill) than in a city (and you also get a Worker instead of razed city).

Specific to your game:

I play low food starts very different than most people (especially when rushing is factored in), so bear with me.

I find in low food capital starts, I can't really depend on the Capital to do much "early" anything, so the best thing I can do is get a 2nd city out ASAP to compensate -- especially if rushing is a factor. If Horses or Copper show up in the BFC, then you should be able skip the 2nd city and move straight to chopping a stack of Chariots or Axes (and make your neighbor's capital the 2nd city).

I strongly recommend against agriculture and for Animal Husbandry for two reasons:

• A Flood Plains Farm costs 67% more turns for 67% less output than a Cow Pasture.
  
  
  Farms take 50% longer to build than Pastures; and Farms on Flood Plains (Desert) take another 25% longer on top of that! A Flood Plains Farm only adds +1 to the tile's output, while a Cow Pasture adds +3 to the tile's output. On Epic, this is 6 turns for Cow Pasture and 10 turns for Flood Plains Farm ... not sure what Normal is (4 vs 7?).​
  
  
• You'll need AH, Mining and BW no matter what you do just to improve your Cows and the [all forested] hills in the capital -- not to mention to find the nearest strategic resource(s), so why wait to see if you have Horses?

Turn 00 / Now:

Research: AH. (Pray for Horses in the BFC or nearby)
Build: Worker.​

If Horses in BFC:

This is the best case scenario.

Research: The Wheel > Agriculture > Mining > BW
Build: Barracks > Warrior/Scout > Chariots
Improve: Cows > Horses > Road to City/River > FP > Chop > Jumbo > Chop/Mine > Chop/Mine > Chop > Chop/Mine > Road to Jumbos (work a counter-clockwise circle)

Since you're chopping all the Chariots and working high production tiles the entire time you're growing, you should have a good stack of Chariots and a neighbor's capital as your 2nd city. As long as you haven't lost too many Chariots and have kept up the Chariot production in the capital, it should still be early enough to move onto your next neighbor.​

If Horses nearby (close enough to grab with 2nd city):

This is still a good scenario.

Research: Agriculture > Mining > BW > The Wheel
Build: Settler > Worker (yes, really!) > Warrior > Barracks > Chariots
Improve1: Cows > Flood Plains > Jumbos > EXIT!
Improve2: Chop/Mine > Chop/Mine > Chop > Chop/Mine

The idea is to hook up the Horses as soon as possible with your 2nd city. The Settler can be "escorted" by the Scout, who should be able to create a safe "line of sight". The 1st Worker should follow the Settler to the new site and chop a Monument (if necessary), improve the Horses & best food tile then connect it via road back to the capital or its river escorted by the scout or Warrior (if not in cultural borders). The 2nd city's builds are Warrior > Barracks > Chariots (with a possible Monument chop in between).

By the time the Capital finishes its 2nd Worker, that Worker should be able to begin chopping and mining just in time for Bronze Working and the Horses.​

If not Horses in BFC or nearby:

This is a less-than-preferable but most likely scenario.

Research (option 1): Mining > BW > Agriculture > The Wheel
Research (option 2): Agriculture > Mining > BW > The Wheel
Build: Scout/Warrior > Barracks > Axemen
Improve (option 1): Cows > Jumbos > Copper or Chop/Mine > FP > Chop/Mine > Chop > Chop/Mine
Improve (option 2): Cows > Jumbos > FP > Copper or Chop/Mine > Chop/Mine > Chop > Chop/Mine

Whether you research Agriculture or Mining first, your Worker will still very likely waste a couple turns in waiting for Ag or BW. I'd rather know where the Copper is and start hooking it up sooner than later, because whether it's in the BFC or not will greatly affect your early builds (specifically the necessity for a Settler).

If you're lucky, Copper will show up in the capital's BFC, and you can use the capital for all your production needs (similar to Horses in BFC above).

However, there's only one tile it can be (the Grassland SW of the Cows), so be prepared to chop out a Settler and follow the "Horses nearby" scenario above of escorting the Settler/Worker, etc to grab the Copper and get the war machine cranked up.​

EDIT: Can you attach the initial save?

EDIT2: NOTE: You and many others are probably choking on the idea of escorting a Settler with a Scout and building two undefended cities, but I'd like to mention animals typically die against fortified Scouts (especially on a hill and/or in a forest) on Noble, and Barbarian units don't begin to appear until ~2000-1000 BC, which leaves plenty of time to build a 2nd city and defend both the capital and the expansion city!


-- my 2

 

[Kerrymdb]

however I don't think any of it really addresses the root of the OPs issue. She stated that she "looses a bunch of units and gets frustrated". That tells me its a tactics issue.

Thank you for the guide! Actually one reason I'm doing a public posting is because I think that will help me NOT get frustrated, since I'll have other people to vent with. I really just need the incentive to get through an entire game with a domination victory in mind and I think these forums are the way to go.

 

[Kerrymdb]

I've played up to turn 25 and I think I have a crucial tech decision in front of me, so I wanted everyone's opinion. But that's later down the road.

First off, we have a few changes.

I am extremely proud of myself for building a scout first. It's something I never do. Ever. It's always worker first. But I decided that the best strategy would be to do the opposite of everything that I normally do.

I kept that idea in place when deciding on a starting tech. Normally, I would grab Meditation and found a religion. But not this time.

I counted the tallies between starting with mining and starting with agriculture. It was 4 verses 5. And since normally I would want to grab those cows, I decided to go after BW first.

I met my first neighbor. I haven't dealt with him much, so I'm not sure how to handle him.

And then I found out that Izzy is not too far north of me. What's amazing is that someone discovered Christianity and it wasn't her! Justinian or Charlemagne must be in the game. Ugh. I don't like either of them.

A very welcome surprise from a hut!

Another neighbor. No one I really like in this game so far. At least I haven't seen Joao yet. He seems to be in every single one of my games.

Then tragedy struck. My brave scout was lost by an attacking lion, when said scout was on a hill. But you'll be proud of me. That's just the type of thing that would happen and I would restart my game. Not this time…

Four neighbors down, two to go. If anyone from Persia had to be on the map, I'm glad it's Cyrus and not Darius.

And now it's decision time. Animal Husbandry is cued up, but I'm wondering if it might not be time for my beloved wheel. I don't have bronze in the BFC and I want to get it hooked up as soon as possible (there's a picture below of where the bronze is at).

I also need to decide what I want the worker to do first. Do I farm the flood plains or do I start chopping?

Here's the known world at this point. Below is my dot map. It was my first, and far too much fun. Of course, I may want to hook up the bronze city and then go right after Izzy... Which do you think for city number two? The blue or the red? Or something else entirely?

I'm open to all comments and suggestions!

And I figured out how to attach a save! In other words, I learned how to read...

Here's the initial start

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/129883/Kerrymdb_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

And the current save

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/129883/Boudica_BC-3000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Well, I'm sad you didn't do what I would've done, but as long as you're happy, that's what matters.

The northern Copper is amidst Jungle, so you'll need Iron Working to chop the Jungle before you can mine it.

The Copper to the west is in a horrible spot and probably not worth wasting a second city on.

Since you have neither city in place, The Wheel will do you no immediate good (you really only need to have it to within 3 turns before the Mine is started).

In either case, since you need IW to get the Copper and your UU is a Swordsman, screw the Copper and snatch the Iron if it appears nearby.

Since Cows are still your best BFC tile, and you're stuck with no immediately accessible Copper, I highly recommend AH at this point.

Diplomacy:

I find Gandhi easier to deal with, so I'd play nice with him for most of the game. He might even build you some Wonders in the mean time.

I hate Izzy, so I'd stomp on her first.

-- my 2

 

[Agent Cooper]

I would place my 2. city on the hill just left of the blu/red BFC's you made, grabbing the cows, stone and banana in the BFC.

I wouldn't build a city by the northern copper resource until you've researched Iron Working - without IW it will take forever to develop that city and make it a reasonable productioncity right now. Also, you might just discover iron in a much better suited location.

If iron is nowhere to be found, the 3. city should be placed somewhere along your BFC's asap.

Iron Working is high priority now.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Monkeyfinger, if Slavery is so bad, why did Firaxis change the upkeep from low to medium and attach the revolt random event to it ??

Really, the revolt does not happen that often. Plus, what's the worst thing that can happen, 1 turn revolt ?

Whipping accelerate the creation of buildings/units. The key is to know when to whip and have enough food to bring back the whipped populations. Plus you get overflow to use for the next build to compensate for the lost population.

Slavery was good in vanilla and WL, so Firaxis hit it with 2 penalties that make it suck in BtS. Simple enough for even you to understand?

 

[CivCorpse]

small piece of advice....do not DOTMAP drunk LOL, sorry

 

[Validator]

I would definitely research AH next. There's nothing to be gained from the Wheel at this point so it can wait until after AH. In addition to being able to improve the cows, it's important to know where horses are since that might affect where you place your second city.

If horses aren't in a convenient place I would settle the red city to claim the copper. The copper tile itself is not overgrown by jungle so you won't need IW to build the copper mine. That would actually be a very strong production city with the cows, bananas and farmed FP feeding the miners. Since the capital is also a strong production city this should make it easy to build up a sizable attack force. All you have to do now is decide who to attack.

With the first two cities being production-oriented the third city should be a good economic site. Any thoughts on whether you would prefer to go SE or CE?

As to what to build I would have the first worker chop a second worker and then have the two of them chop the settler. You should be able to fit in a couple of warrior builds in between the chops. If you don't feel like micro-managing it to that extent you could just go the conventional route and farm the FP while AH is researched and then build the cow pasture, while the city builds a warrior then settler.

You'll want to keep scouting to get a better idea of the land around Spain and India, and also to try to find out where the other civs are located. That will help us give advice on who your first victim should be.

 

[Pe Ell]

Thank you for elaborating on your viewpoint Monkeyfinger. I still think slavery has it's uses despite there being some added drawbacks in BtS. Might not be a discussion for this topic however.

The celtic UU can be built with either copper or iron to my knowledge, one of its advantages. Still we need IW to actually get the copper since it's jungled over. Next research should be either IW or AH depending on what you feel is appropriate. AH might be better since it's cheaper.

What's the plan? A second city then rush Izzy? Or do you want a longer build up period before the first war. If so we should probably wait for catapults since culture will get things messy.

One option could be to research IW, claim iron and 2-city rush Izzy with celtic swords. But if you're looking to minimize losses that's not really the thing to do. Yeah, I'm just tossing ideas around here.

 

[dalamb]

I'm another Noble level player learning to warmonger; I tried Julius first but am now working with Boudica -- on a Highlands map. That has the Pangaea connectivity but worse travel, fewer resources, and lots of hills that make her Guerilla 1 promotion from the Dun a lot more valuable.

WRT slavery, I realized quickly not to switch to it until I really needed it, because of that slave revolt event.

But I have one question: how is Domination different from Conquest? I mean, yes, the obvious difference between killing everything and keeping some things around, but

1. How do you dominate/control all that territory without dying from maintanance penalties? Wait for Forbidden Palace and Versailles before expanding much?
2. If you raze enemy cities to avoid maintenance, how do you grab territory? All I could think of was to build/keep as few cities as possible around the edges, then have them culturally expand as much as possible -- maybe do a lot of art bombs?

 

[madscientist]

My opinion.

Toui otta claim that copper to the west. As mentioned the one to the north requires IW. Drop a settler on the hill which would include the stone and gold, and hope for another resource our grasslands in that dark area. It will be a low population city, but get's you three very useful resources. You would want that city to build a monument to pop the cutlure borders.

Your rivals.

Adopt what ever reiligon Issabela gets, and get her to dogpile gandhi with you. My experience with Hammarabi is he is the most peaceful of the Agressive leaders. Treat him nice, adopt Bur. when applicable and you are set.

You third city should be a prime cottage location to build the ecnomy up.

Tech AH first to get the cows on line and find horses (maybe for the third city). Get the wheel next.

My experience with gandhi is he is the most dangerous leader for tech right now, take him out. Hammarabi is a very competant techer and gets a large empire leveraging that ORG trait for all it's worth. Issy is the next logical choice but see if you can get her to build her shrine for the eventual holy city she will get first.

But if you plan to go on the warpath and leverage your leaders traits, get the copper at all costs. Do not wait for iron, you may get an ugly surprize!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

1. How do you dominate/control all that territory without dying from maintanance penalties? Wait for Forbidden Palace and Versailles before expanding much?

Speed. Do everything fast.

When a new city comes into your empire, have it already connected by roads with 2 Workers waiting to (re)build improvements and chop necessary infrastructure.

When CoL is finished, have forests pre-chopped and cities full-grown (even over the happy cap) ready to chop/whip Courthouses.

Get your SoD to and through their target as quickly as possible to minimize both transit time and time in enemy territory. For me, this means bringing along 6 Workers (Epic speed) with the SoD to "pave the way".

Ensure your SoD has a M*A*S*H unit with it (possibly even two) to minimize the down time between cities.

Keep at least one close friend to research "Economy" techs while you research the "Military" techs ... then trade them whenever possible to them.

Whatever you do, do it as quickly as possible, because war is expensive.

2. If you raze enemy cities to avoid maintenance, how do you grab territory? All I could think of was to build/keep as few cities as possible around the edges, then have them culturally expand as much as possible -- maybe do a lot of art bombs?

I try to only raze "overlap" cities and poorly-placed cities difficult to quickly bring online.

I also prioritize CoL so when the new city comes out of anarchy, I can chop/whip a Courthouse within a couple turns.

-- my 2