help a gal learn how to dominate

[OTAKUjbski]

My experience with gandhi is he is the most dangerous leader for tech right now, take him out.

That's interesting.

For me, this is precisely why I like to keep him alive. In my highest-scoring Domination game, Gandhi was my neighbor and friend from the Ancient Era. I couldn't rely on him for military action, but he stayed tried-and-true to economic techs while I pressed hard for the military techs.

As soon as I would get a new military tech, I would trade it off to Gandhi for his latest economic tech.

I ran the risk of him trading off my military techs to other civs, but I kept him in my Buddhist block and at odds with the rest of the world enough to keep him in my pocket.

In the end, I didn't have to declare on Gandhi, but had I needed to, his technological superiority wouldn't've stood a chance to my raw production.


It probably is a better plan to "control" Izzy as an attack dog, but after being backstabbed by her Conquistadors in a recent game, I've been having a hard time playing nice with her.


I guess that goes to show you just how different things can play out in different games.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Wow ... 3 posts in a row ... is that spamming?

I couldn't help but shadow the game up to 2960 BC.

@ kerrymdb: don't open the spoiler until you've played a round or two

Spoiler :

I'm a sucker for building a Worker first, so I went with Worker > Barracks > Warrior and researched AH > The Wheel > Agriculture.

As it turns out, luck be a lady ...

I popped a hut for my 2nd scout and discovered a source of Horses in the BFC!!!

With Horses hooked up and a Barracks in place, it wont be 10 turns before the end begins.

I'm not sure for whom, though.

 

[CivMcNut]

I'd say the biggest threat you have met so far is Izzy. If you don't adopt the same religion as her she is almost sure to go closed borders, no tech trading, and stab your back if your cities are left poorly defended. The other 3 guys are all bigtime tech machines. From my experience they will just REX until there's no more land, reasearch like crazy, and only declare war on you if they have a big military advantage. I always try to think who my first victim is gonna be first, and try concentrating everything towards taking that Civ out.

I agree with several of the posters in that the red dot would make a fine city. It's got long and short range potential. I think the purple dot would make a good third city. A lot will depend on what pops up when AH is finished. You could do a charriot/horse archer rush out of 2 or 3 cities if you can get horses in one of the spots. If no horses then definately IW becomes the top priority. If nothing else it will net you the copper and let you build axes and spears.

Once you have your military building up and the proper techs for it I'd certainly look into pottery and writing, you're gonna need a lot of cash and science to be able to deal with the later foes.

 

[Validator]

Still we need IW to actually get the copper since it's jungled over.

Toui otta claim that copper to the west. As mentioned the one to the north requires IW.

If no horses then definately IW becomes the top priority. If nothing else it will net you the copper and let you build axes and spears.

Since my earlier post didn't make this clear apparently, the copper tile to the north is NOT overgrown by jungle. Open up the save and check it yourself if you don't believe me.

How do you dominate/control all that territory without dying from maintanance penalties? Wait for Forbidden Palace and Versailles before expanding much?

IMO the key is to build a strong economy. In addition to the city maintenance you'll be paying you'll also need a large military to capture all those cities. That requires you to pay a lot of unit support and unit supply. One of the reasons that strong economic leaders are good choices if you're going for domination.

 

[Daedal]

I agree with Validator's city site assessment. Red dot FTW. You'll get nice production from it now and it looks to me like a decent GP farm in the future.

City sites 2 and 3 seem too defensive... be bold! There's a nice spot 6E1N of red dot that grabs jumbos, corn, gems, and a riverside. I'd build that as city 3 then build a force and destroy Izzy (since she's right there anyway...).

Chop settlers to get those two cities out fast. Build 1 worker for each city and maybe 1 extra worker if you don't steal it. Get roads throughout your empire and over to Izzy's for quicker conquest.

 

[Pe Ell]

Ah, Validator is correct, there is no jungle on the copper. That's what I get from making hasty assessment.
Red dot makes an excellent site then. River for health, cows for extra production and a little food boost and the copper for barb protection. Bananas will be yummy later. Shame about the elephants but they can wait.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

(I can't remember the last time I was so involved in a game that wasn't mine ... this makes me feel weird.)

Since my earlier post didn't make this clear apparently, the copper tile to the north is NOT overgrown by jungle. Open up the save and check it yourself if you don't believe me.

Lol. (Bad on me: I didn't open the save until after I'd made my assessment ... that screenshot is so convincing!)

On that note, I know Copper can start in the jungle, but can Jungle grow over Copper? I know Forests can't grow over [most] resources, but I'm not sure about Jungle.

IMO the key is to build a strong economy.

I agree, but I disagree on how to go about it.

Izzy is going to found a religion (it's only a matter of when ... never if with her). So if we wait too long to attack while "building the economy", her cultural defenses could easily prevent us from swiftly conquering her.

A Settler & Worker (to hook up the "economic" city) costs as much as 4 Axemen or 6 Chariots. If we're lucky and find Madrid defended by only 2 Archers, then either is plenty to get the job done.

Madrid will undoubtedly be a better city than anything we can found at this point, so I vote to make Madrid the "economy" city.

There's a nice spot 6E1N of red dot that grabs jumbos, corn, gems, and a riverside.

Gems? I'm partial to 5E1N to grab 4 extra Grassland Hills and to save the Plains Forest for chopping.

My vote is to make this city #4 (Madrid being City #3) and founding it as a hybrid production-commerce city.


-- more of my 2

 

[ABigCivFan]

I circled some city spots in order of their strategical importance.

1. Copper/banana/cow. Nice production site good food and hammers. on a hill for added defensive bonus. By river - levee later. I d settle this on first just to secure the copper, will need IW to work it.

2. Rice/gold/stone/spice city, not a growth city, but Gold/stone/rice are top resources providing happy/health/wonder to you entire empire, the gold shuold help with its high maint. Stone helps with the Dun.

3. Dye, suger, very good resources giving early 2 bonuses to the empire (with Theater and Grocer), also by river.

4. Corn/sheep/crab. Corn is top resource, this city can be a GP farm. Also consider Moai Statues in this one later so it can build some naval forces.

5. 2 Ivory/Corn, Ivory is great trading commodaty, it is close to capital with low maint.

6. Wheat/Silk/Cow, you can back fill this one, very good resources here.

This dotmap is assume a peaceful build up, if you need to Axe rush, just build 2 more production cities such as city 1 and 5. with These 3 cities pumping Axe/Gallic, you should be able to take down at least 2 neighbours. Good luck.

 

[noto]

I think the key thing to remember when war-mongering is how to turn your military assets into other assets. Focusing on unit production will see your economy fall behind and you won't grab any wonders - but that's okay, why? Well, your units can be turned into other sources of power. Say there is a builder civ nearby and they grab a bunch of juicy city locations and a couple of wonders. March your units on over and those wonders are now yours. Did they found a religion and build a shrine? That's yours too. Good city locations? Yours too. Bad city locations? That's okay, raze it. Each city you take will give you a whole lot of gold. Then, when you need to stop and take a breather, develop your cities. You will have more cities than your rivals due to conquest, and use that to your advantage. With so many cities you can afford to turn some of them into commerce cities to prop up your economy, and still have many hammer cities for troop production. Falling behind in tech? No problem - hit the tech leader hard and sue for peace by forcing him/her to hand techs over to you, or even force them to capitulate and give you ALL of their techs.

To me, understanding how to use a superior military in this way is the key to winning an aggressive/warmongering game.

 

[Xurr]

IMO the key is to build a strong economy. In addition to the city maintenance you'll be paying you'll also need a large military to capture all those cities. That requires you to pay a lot of unit support and unit supply. One of the reasons that strong economic leaders are good choices if you're going for domination.

CoL and the subsequent courthouse is key for that as well. With out it you won't expand far even with a decent to good economy.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

Kerry,
I struggled for a long time on Noble and then on Prince. Now I struggle on Monarch.

My first really exciting victory was a conquest victory with Boudica on a small balanced map, marathon speed at monarch level. I built a worker, settler and then Stonehenge (similar to one of your early posts). I also went for the Great Wall.

In that initial phase of expansion, I built almost no units. I beelined for Bronze working and eventually got to ironworking as well. Then I started cranking out the Gallic Warriors. Every now and then I would make another worker and send him to build roads.

The method that worked for me was to use enough Gallic Warriors to take a city in the first wave each time. I probably used 6 against the first city and only 2 survived. As the AI cities get more cultural defense, my numbers of attacking warriors would need to be increased.

I would raze almost everything that wasn't an absolutely beautiful spot or a capitol. I kept my workers busy building roads "to the front." That made it possible to move reinforcements up to the fighting even quicker.

I found that I could keep my research slider above 20% most of the time. I probably never made it very far past construction tech-wise. I would have to check my previous posts to see what the conquest date was, as I've reformatted since then. I'm thinking it might have around 1280 AD.

My advice is to try lots of different things. I like you're idea of counter-intuitivity. I might try that just for grins.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Hi, I'm not all that bright (see title). Take all advice with a grain of salt.

First, food rocks in the early game. More food is good.

Second, don't get too caught up in planning more than thirty turns ahead if you're not planning some kind of wonder/bulbing strat. Dotmaps are cool, but lots of stuff is gonna happen between that first planned city and the sixth.

Third, I played a shadow based on no wonders til later. I skimmed your thread but didn't really note what you did or your plans. This is just to give you ideas.

Spoiler :

Zero - minimal food in BFC. fix that by researching AG.
3 - Hut gives 44g
5 - Hut gives 81g. another yields a map
8 - Ag -> mining
10 - first religion founded
13 - mining -> bronze
15 - worker finishes, start warrior
16 - meet Hammi and Izzy
18 - hut popped for 42g
23 - meet Cyrus
25 - BW -> wheel (gotta connect it, right)
26 - stop

priority is hook up the copper, learn IW and rush Izzy. Get the cows on line (research AH after IW). Pause and plan.

regards


Four, good thinking on counter intuitive and being flexible.

Let me know if you want me to post my save.

 

[Validator]

On that note, I know Copper can start in the jungle, but can Jungle grow over Copper? I know Forests can't grow over [most] resources, but I'm not sure about Jungle.

That's a key point. I was under the impression that jungle and forest are allowed on certain resources but not others. But I couldn't find anywhere in the XML files where that's specified. So I'm not sure. Maybe somebody who knows can clarify.

Founding the red city and then having the jungle spread on the copper would be a problem, especially if horses aren't available. OTOH the red city is a pretty good city site with cows, FP and a couple of hills that can be worked right away in any case.

City sites 2 and 3 seem too defensive... be bold! There's a nice spot 6E1N of red dot that grabs jumbos, corn, gems, and a riverside. I'd build that as city 3 then build a force and destroy Izzy (since she's right there anyway...).

That spot will make a nice commerce city, but it's right on Izzy's border and there's a good chance the AI will want to expand there, so the site might not be available.

In terms of a launching pad for an attack on Izzy, the red city actually is just as close to Madrid. 5 tile march by my count, and it would be approaching on the diagonal which allows you to get closer to Madrid before declaring war.

CoL and the subsequent courthouse is key for that as well. With out it you won't expand far even with a decent to good economy.

I usually don't worry about courthouses until I have about 7 or 8 cities. They don't really give you much of an expense reduction until then IMO.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I'm sure it's bad form to "work ahead", but I couldn't resist playing another round ...

Spoiler SHADOW @ 1240 BC :

In short, I have 3 new cities: Madrid, Delhi and Babylon.

2360 BC: Two chariots find the hilltop city of Madrid defended by a Warrior and a Worker. No chariots were lost in that battle. Madrid had a ready-made Marble Quarry along the river, so I figured a detour to Priesthood and Masonry for The Oracle was in order.

2080 BC: Three Chariots find the hilltop city of Bombay defended by a single Warrior. One Chariot was lost, and the city was razed.

1880 BC: War is declared by the nation of Celtia against Babylon over the ownership of a Babylonian Worker.

1840 BC: Reinforcements arrive at the hilltop Hindu Holy City of Delhi (no shrine) and surround the two Warriors and the Fast Worker inside. One chariot was lost.

1680 BC: Peace is declared between the nations of Babylon and Celtia.

1400 BC: The Oracle is finished in Madrid -- netting Mathematics to open up Construction. Madrid then begins construction on The Great Wall.

1280 BC: War is resumed between the nations of Babylon and Celtia -- beginning with the freeing of 2 Workers. Akkad and its single defense force of 1 Warrior is razed to the ground. A Settler and his Warrior escort is located trying to cross the border and is eliminated.

1240 BC: The Confucian Holy City of Babylon and its defense force of 1 Bowman and 1 Scout is surrounded and captured. Two Chariots are honoured in death at that battle.

1240 BC: With 328 gold in the coffers and a deficit of 18 gold per turn, the great nation of Celtia has 18 turns before all research comes to a halt.

 

[Kerrymdb]

Any thoughts on whether you would prefer to go SE or CE?

I usually end up with a hybrid of some sort. Though since I won't be building like I normally do, that may change. I'm more comfortable with SE.

 

[Kerrymdb]

(I can't remember the last time I was so involved in a game that wasn't mine ... this makes me feel weird.)

I'm glad people are taking an interest! Otherwise, I'd probably have given up after I lost my scout.

 

[Kerrymdb]

Alright. So I managed to get through turn 98 without having a heart attack. In the process, I destroyed a civilization. That's right, me. Far-too-nice-for-her-own-good, me. Now it's time to consult my advisors on who's going down next.

First off, I'm much too pleased with myself that I didn't read the spoilers people posted. I'm a sucker for spoilers. And thank you again to everyone who's posted! I haven't responded to everyone, but I am reading every post and seriously considering all advice that's given.

Onto the game...

I decided to keep with my instincts from last night. The planned tech path was AH / Wheel / IW. I built my first warrior to be used as an escort for the settler to build the copper city.

And look what I found in my BFC! I decided to hook those babies up right away.

Met another neighbor. Ugh. I was hoping that I would luck out and get no protective neighbors. Ah well.

And then I find…

Gah! Barbarians! My little heart started fluttering, worried about my brave scouts. Would they survive?

And the answer would be no… I'm now scoutless. But their efforts will never be forgotten and someday, someday when the barbarians least expect, VENGENCE WILL BE MINE! ahem. Moving on...

I then made a tactical decision. Since hooking up that bronze felt like it was going to take forever, I decided to heed OTAKUjbski's advice and try a chariot rush on Spain instead of an axe rush. (I really wanted to take Izzy out) I've never tried that before. Heck, I've barely ever even built a chariot before. So why not?

Bibracte quickly built six chariots and it was off to war we go!

On the way to war, we got a welcome surprise. Finished researching IW and it turns out there's some right in my borders. Which meant I was going to have iron hooked up before bronze. Gaelic warriors here I come!

So I proudly marched to Seville and quickly destroyed the one noble warrior that was defending the city. I was hoping for riches to help my economy and all I got was one lousy coin. Ah well. There'll be more plunder later.

Then on to the noble capital. (How weird is it that three religions have been founded and Lizzy founded none of them? Odd. Very odd.) OTAKUjbski's advice promptly paid off, as Madrid was defended by axemen, not archers. I didn't lose a single chariot in the fight. Madrid is now my third city.

Izzy snuck another city while I wasn't looking so my chariots quickly destroyed that city. I debated about keeping it, but decided I didn't like it enough to worry about the cost.

I finally met my last neighbor. He's another one I don't like too much. But can I tell you how happy I am that Joao isn't in this game?

A couple of turns after I captured Madrid, I received a message. Something like, "Sir, the people of Madrid are rightfully asking to join the Babylon Empire." WTH? I didn't know that could happen! I basically told them to 'sit down and shut up.' But much more nicely than that. Then I realized how close Babylon was to my empire.

But before I could concentrate on deciding who to fight next, I had a barbarian issue to take care off.

I was actually thinking of keeping it, but it was razed automatically. Are all barbarians cities razed, or do you ever have the option of keeping them?

Did some scouting into Babylon's territory. They have bowmen. How are those stacked up next to chariots are gaelic warriors?

This is where I left off. Turn 98. And I have to say, this is the furthest I've ever gotten in a game with barbarians turned on and with a goal of domination or conquest. And I'm not frustrated yet, which is sort of amazing.

What do you think of this stack? Is it enough to take on Hammy? Or should I hold off for a bit and build more units? Or should I go after someone else entirely? I like the idea of Hammy, because he has a couple of nice cities and he has a holy city.

Here are my cities. I hadn't planned on building any wonders this early, but for my sanity, I need the Great Wall to keep those nasty barbarians out. I just hope I haven't started it too late.

Here's the current save for anyone who wants to take a look.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/129883/Boudica_BC-0425.CivBeyondSwordSave

As always, your thoughts and comments are appreciated. In fact, this time around, they're almost required. I'm a little lost about a tech path to take. And since I'm not doing the builder route, I wondering what basics I need in my cities. Barracks? Graineries? It's harder than I thought it would be not to build a library...

Thanks, everyone!

 

[oyzar]

Dont' promote units before you need it. For example shock is fairly useless against bowmen.. You should be able to kill hammy with that stack though you would probably face several losses as bowmen get +50% against melee. Does nothing against chariots but killer against gaellic warriors.. Get more chariots and less of the swordsmen and you should be fine...

 

[Agent Cooper]

Well, Boudica is an interesting challenge since her warmongering traits are offset by her sub-par economic development and not exactly splendid UU.

Hell, I'll try a shadowgame as well later, following my own advice from the post I made earlier and see where that takes me. I'll beeline Iron Working and place city 2&3 accordingly.

Update: saw you posted the next rounds while I was typing - nicely done.

Your stack looks pretty godd, but I would add a couple of spears and a worker, because you will probably run into chariots and spears will eat them alive. I would prioritize Stonehenge over The Great Wall at this time.

 

[Killroyan]

The stack looks decent enough but put in some defensive units also. So mix in some archers (who you can leave behind in conquered cities), spearmen against horsies and axemen against melee attacks. Great going so far.

I would have prioritized stonehenge over the great wall also but you are looking great so far. If you have conquered your second civ get a build up mode to settle some of the cities that have been proposed here.