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Help for playing the Grigori

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Strategy & Tips' started by rxrx, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    A mod of Fall From Heaven is still Fall from Heaven. They are as alien to FfH2 as humans are from eachother, which is to say not at all.
    You don't need to relearn all mechanics, though; only the few changes that pertain to the Grigori. As RifE and FF are firmly based on FfH2, the change is negligable in most regards.


    Charmed as I am at the flattery, I am not a thread; 'on-topic in response' to me is still grossly off topic, especially when I was not off topic in the first place. You can disagree with my suggestions, but that does not mean they aren't appropriate in context of the thread/



    You are and were. Common sense and basic social skills as well. You are not a Mod, so by shaddowmodding you're breaching your forum role as well.
    Yeah, you pretty much derailed this thread. And for no real reason: it was neither necessary or helpful. Necessity implies a lack of choice, but even a minor faux paus on my part harms no one. Yet your 'correction' has directly led to the derailment of this thread; one of us made no difference to the thread, and the other sparked a derailement.

    Congratulations. Perhaps we should put you to use in politics.

    Insidious? Wicked? Get over your offended morality.

    The ability to start with a stronger economy economy by turn 1 improvements is an advantage for the modmods. Similarly, civics like city states greatly cut down maintanence costs. That is not a opinion, it is a fact. While you can argue that he might have other problems, starting economy will not be one of them with the other mods. There is evil conspiracy against him in that suggestion.
    There's no venting to be done in the first place, nor are there any falsehoods. The alternative mods offer expanded economic options to manage the economy. You haven't even tried to deny it in the least.
    Duh of the week, though 'subtle' =/= condecension. Perhaps you should remember this next time you want to 'correct' someone else.
     
  2. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Since the thread is firmly derailed now, I would like to point out that I agree with Dean's first post being absolutely ontopic and Emptiness' reply therefore misplaced.

    I would also like not to be flamed for this opinion and, if possible, to keep the thread out of a flaming war, and continue with the subject, since I, too, find the Grigori harder than many other nations to play. And while FF and especially RifE seems interesting to play when playing Grigori, I do not intend to instill them. Heck, I might not even have the latest FfH2 patch...

    Anyway, what do people find late adventurers to serve best as? Archmagi is a repeated suggestion, but how about mounted units with high moves? I also heard someone mention Hero Assassins, which I can imagine would be wicked cool aswell...
     
  3. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    If you think you were recommending that rxrx use a FfH2 modmod to make his play easier, then you are wrong. FF began as a modmod of FfH2, but it is now a standalone mod based on the FfH2 setting. RiFE, as a modmod of FF, is also not a mod of FfH2. What you did was recommend that rxrx quit playing the mod he is playing and go play another mod instead. Very bad form.

    Anyway, I'm done here.
     
  4. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    And I would have to disagree. Dean's first post was simply FF > FFH. This is a thread about FFH. It would be like telling a player new to civ that wants help to ditch base civ and play RFC.
     
  5. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    children, chidren! come on, please stop fighting in front of the new guy :p

    welcome to the forums, rxrx. we're usually NOT like this, I assure you :lol:
     
  6. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Cassiel is the only leader in FFH that can be Philosophical AND Financial!!! One possible choice is to only get one or two adventurers, and then use the rest for good ole ingenuity (specialists)
     
  7. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I find that combo of traits makes it great to go Aristograrian, you get tons of commerce + tons of specialists :D

    aside from that, do keep your adventurers alive at all costs since they can be upgraded all the way down to tier4 and become monsters. I find it's usually best to go metal line heavy with them.
     
  8. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    I usually find heroes to be best served as Either Assasins or Cavalry ... although if you start em out early game ... metal might be best all around
     
  9. Demus

    Demus Chieftain

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    first adventurer: warrior/axemen -> go kill your nearest neighbor with shock 2/march (keep this guy around if you can so you can upgrade him into a champion -> knight late-game).

    Archmages, while killer units expecially with twincast, imo come to late to start saving adventurers for (if you want hero mages, get some after you pop your world spell instead). Every adventurer should be another civ conquered, and you should have won (or at least be ahead in land/production/tech) by the time you'd normally even reach archmages.

    About hero assassins: they sound nice (expecially if you can get Aerons chosen on one), but realise that, as the grigori, you'll most likely be unable to upgrade them into shadows, making this a dead-end path.
     
  10. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Chieftain

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    Assassins can also upgrade to Marksman. They are pretty good units with a strength of 11.
     
  11. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Actually, the council of Esus is the ONLY religion that can be freely spread by the grigori. Therefore they make the best Mafia bosses with their elite Hero Shadows.

    they can research deception (easily), they can pay the gold for the nightwatch to spread the faith further (easily), and they can even build the Nox Noctis (difficult/lucky)

    Basically, they can easily spread Esus around, and I believe ... even get a religious victory with Esus. So shadows are a definite probability.

    Marksmen are also good, but more expensive in terms of tech, and arguably not as useful.

    Another (surprising) nation that has the potential for powerful assasins is the Malakim. Albeit, not the most efficient approach, but with enough Esus cities, you can have a massive horde of elite assasins.
     
  12. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    No, Fall Further is simply a modmod of FfH2. It is a direct descendant of the original, and is as much Fall From Heaven as one can be. FF and RiFE are Fall From Heaven in the same way games in a franchise are still part and parcel of their franchise. It is no more bad form to recommend one implementation over another than it is to suggest one Mario game over another. They're still both mario games.

    After, of course, ensuring you would have the sweet, last word.

    About what one would expect. If you were done, you wouldn't have needed to the last post regardless.

    :rolleyes:

    FF isn't that different from FFH2 when it comes to the Grigori, and is a far smaller leap less than the difference between vanilla civ and that Mod (which only has a handful of new mechanics as well).

    When it comes to playing the Grigori, the difference between FF and FFH2, or even RiFE and FFH2, are neither great or terrible. You have the opportunity to start economy earlier. The Adventurer spawning is quicker and easier.

    Past that, the differences are less than the differences between Vanilla Civ and FFH in general. While other Civs have gotten major redesigns, the Grigori don't have many changes at all, and none that are of any deep complexity, unlike, say, Sheaim Planar Gate spawning.

    The subject of this thread is playing the Grigori, and the OP only said he was new to FFH in general. You can play the Grigori in whichever version you want, but it's perfectly valid and helpful to point out differences between the versions and how they affect him.
     
  13. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    Well, I interpreted FFH to mean the main mod, not the whole franchise.
     
  14. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    Is Civ 2 not a Civ game, even though it's different from 1? Civ 4? Civ 4 BtS?
     
  15. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Dean the Young, can you cease further derailment of this thread?

    I have yet to see you post Grigori Tips on this thread (for playing the game specifically as the Grigori). Basically, stop being immature and actually point out how to better play the Grigori.

    Some people focus on Archmages, is that what you do? Im assuming, from previous posts, that you focus on Dragon Slayers ... Pure economy -> down the metal line to champions
     
  16. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

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    being able to build a farm in 24 turns isn't going to help any new player. Nor is playing a mod that doesn't have a manual, more python features that aren't documented anywhere, more bugs, no strategy forum / strategy guides.

    if you want to learn FFH, play it and not some modmod (which all of them you should try some day :D). Pretty simply

    I don't know if it is bad form what Dean is doing, but it is surely bad advice.

    anyway, to stay on topic. Pick financial trait on turn 96 (adaptive trait) and try to have education tech by then.
     
  17. DaveGold

    DaveGold Chieftain

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    Getting markets quickly can help you bring in enough cash to upgrade your first adventurer. If you're desparate for more cash you can promote him to be a bounty hunter, doesn't add much in the big scheme of things but it might help towards upgrading your second adventurer. The consumption civic is very strong choice for the Grigori, almost as a direct replacement for the happiness and income from religion.
     
  18. slowcar

    slowcar Chieftain

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    I play the grigori very adventurer-centered. the first two go to the metal line and will help rushing the neighbours. a shock2+march warrior on the very beginning makes it a lot easier. later on the shock2, march, city raider 3 axeman can be upgraded to a chariot, promoted to blitz and take out cities all on his own. 100 free xp help a lot.

    the rest is not too different from other civs. personally i prefer to play a hut+gambling house economy, with science around 60-70% to keep up happiness. guild of the nine plays well with this style. without kilmorph temples the early expansion has to be a bit more cautios, markets and city states get all the more important. but thats more or less the same for all civs, and there are enough threads about basic economy.
     
  19. readercolin

    readercolin Chieftain

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    Well, I suppose the big question then is if you want to focus on adventurers or if you want to focus on economy. For the first, you can get about 20ish effect adventurer points per turn in your capital after modifiers. This however involves using pacifism, building the heroic epic (+100% gp growth), getting an adventurers guild, and running anything else that gives +GP rate available. You can get about 5 adventurer points base from your capital, meaning that the rest is about a 300% boost to GP (100% from philisophical, 100% from heroic epic, 50% from pacifism, 25% from adventurers guild, +some more from remaining things). IIRC, the capital produces +2 adventurer points, meaning that every other city can get 3 adventurers, with a 200% bonus, for a total of 9 points. You can start getting these rates by around turn 200 IIRC.

    What does this mean? If you focus on adventurers, you can get usually 2-3 (sometimes 4) before turn 200 w/out casting your worldspell. After turn 200ish, I can usually grab one every 15ish turns, meaning that by turn 300 or so, I can have 8-10 adventurers, all without casting my worldspell. With casting my worldspell, I can get more, but I rarely use world spells so I can't give exact numbers. As for what I do with adventurers, I almost always find that the first 2-4 are best sent down the metal line (to defend me from orthus/barbarians/other civs, etc.) What I do with the rest is usually up to me - but usually they don't make that big a difference, so I generally make them mages if I can. However, if it makes it to late game, I always love having 4 highly promoted (several hundred xp) immortals.

    Now, if you don't want to focus on adventurers, then the only thing that you have going for you is that Cassiel is adaptive. With a 300% bonus rate in a city of your choosing, you can get massive numbers of specialists. What specialists you use is up to you, but if you run godking and get bazzar of mammon, you can get an automatic 150% bonus to gold rate in that city, making merchants a neat idea. Or you can run priests and go for an altar victory (theocracy necessary), or use guilds for unlimited specialists to do whatever you want with. However, the cost of doing all this is getting no more adventurers... and if I'm playing as the grigori, I want adventurers.

    Really in the end its up to you what you do. But if you want a fun game at lower difficulty levels then scuzzing by with a minimal army but lots of adventurers is always fun.

    -Colin
     
  20. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    I appreciate the input on how to get 8-10 adventuers by turn 300.

    I would appreciate a few more details for your specific example ...
    a) what game-speed were you playing?
    b) what economy were you running? (aristofarms? Cottage economy?)

    how long did it take you to link up the full 5 base adventurer points in your capital? in other core cities?
     

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