Help Me Get Better on Immortal!

[Qactus]

Spoiler T68 sampsa :

I really like the opening. Can't really argue against Pyramids with stone and so many forests.
Nevertheless, what I would do next would be to claim the elephants asap. That is, I'd switch Cordoba to a settler right away and settle on top of the southern elephant. The reason is simply, no strategic resource yet. If I discover both horses and iron in my territory, I'd happily gift the crappy phant-city to Gilgamesh and tech peacefully to Conqs. But imagine neither horse nor iron. I'd be glad to have secured elephants and use them either with catapults, or (depending on Gilgamesh's progress towards protective longbows) with stone-citadel-CRIII-trebs.

 

[sampsa]

You wouldn't even settle the Ivory city and just focus on the sites you mentioned? You saying auto-win makes me quite confused because I really don't understand what makes this position so great. If anything I think the position is quite worrisome since we are hemmed in and have only room for five or six cities. As a lower level player than yourself, I see that as a death sentence. I'm quite skeptical that I can keep up in tech with the Immortal AI with such a small empire.

No, I'm not planning to settle ivory, because it's a very weak spot and it creates some border tension. Maybe I can settle it and gift, then trade for his ivory if I really need it. What makes this position great is good tiles and good specialists. By "auto-win" I mean that if everything goes the way I see it going, there won't be many obstacles. 5 cities is easily enough, if you use them well.

 

[sampsa]

T99 auto-win, nothing overly spoily except the possible horse location

Spoiler :

This is the kind of position I envisaged. Only one -res via trade, but Gilg will have 2nd ivory soon. Only worrisome thing is if Gilga plots, but I can buy 10T of time by begging (knowing for 93T + land target should guarantee begging a -resource works). Founded Santiago since Cordoba can't use all the food anyway and my floodplain city trio is about to stagnate at size 8 switching tiles running as many specialists as possible. Getting to conqs should be very smooth from here. Without horses it would've been more interesting (edit: still possible to have no iron, but should be able to at least buy it), but with such tech power engineering is not overly far. Even trebs+longbows will certainly be enough against immortal AI.

 

[dankok8]

No, I'm not planning to settle ivory, because it's a very weak spot and it creates some border tension. Maybe I can settle it and gift, then trade for his ivory if I really need it. What makes this position great is good tiles and good specialists. By "auto-win" I mean that if everything goes the way I see it going, there won't be many obstacles. 5 cities is easily enough, if you use them well.

Yea it's a weak spot but border tension doesn't matter if I plan to attack him after Construction anyway? Also I doubt he will trade me Ivory if I don't have any strategic resource he needs. You are a better player than me so I trust your judgment but I don't know if I can pull it off economically with such a small empire. I've noticed that I lost almost every game on Immortal where I couldn't have at least 12 cities.

As of now still undecided whether to send the Settler for the Ivory site or to the FP + Stone site. I'll try to play a short segment today and I hope I figure it out.

 

[Harv]

I thought Ivory was a luxury resource that just happens to build a very powerful Classical age unit!

 

[sampsa]

Yea it's a weak spot but border tension doesn't matter if I plan to attack him after Construction anyway? Also I doubt he will trade me Ivory if I don't have any strategic resource he needs.

It matters if he starts plotting on you before you are ready. He will trade excess strategic resources at pleased (easy to get with a city gift).

You are a better player than me so I trust your judgment but I don't know if I can pull it off economically with such a small empire. I've noticed that I lost almost every game on Immortal where I couldn't have at least 12 cities.

Well, a way to tackle this problem would be to learn how to do it.

As of now still undecided whether to send the Settler for the Ivory site or to the FP + Stone site. I'll try to play a short segment today and I hope I figure it out.

I think it's a good idea to go for the ivory site, if that was your first intuition. Maybe it works very well, I don't know. If it doesn't, then your intuition is corrected.

 

[5tephen]

A 5/6 city empire to breakout with cuirrasers/cannon [not stated which I have to prevent spoiling resource knowledge] is definitely achievable - I had a healthy tech lead despite using vastly inferior city locations to Sampsa's plan and not having Pyramids until ~T100.

Spoiler Spoiler re:curraisers vs cannons :

I have attached the save which doesn't have any additional spoilers beyond the screenshot. I've nearly finished my continent but haven't posted the save from that as it does have significant spoilers. I might retry with Sampsa's plan though to compare for my own learning - I think it'd probably be a lot better.

 

[dankok8]

I thought Ivory was a luxury resource that just happens to build a very powerful Classical age unit!

Ivory is treated as strategic by AI.

Anyways I'm leaning towards Sampsa's idea now. Having a more compact core will also reduce maintenance and as long as I can ensure safety by diplomacy I think I'll build the smallest military I can get away with for now and try and break out with Conqs. Planning to play out the next turnset very soon.

 

[dankok8]

Played to turn 49 (2040 BC). Pretty much followed the city locations Sampsa suggested.

Spoiler :

Tried to be efficient working the best tiles to complete techs ASAP and also build 2nd Settler efficiently. Pre-chopped a couple of forests while Madrid was building a Warrior and growing for a few turns.

Trying to fogbust with Warriors and cities (Sevilla now doing a great job!). The northern Warrior is sitting there and not on the forest just south of that because he killed a Warrior while fortified on that forest and then an Archer startled him and he had to run. He's healing now and got Woody I.

I'm thinking Madrid will build another Worker to help cottage up then start Pyramids, Sevilla maybe Granary. Barcelona not sure after the Warrior, maybe another Worker?

Since I didn't look at any of the spoilers, I have some questions and need help. In fact I don't feel very confident continuing without feedback on these.

Spoiler Question #1 :

How come Madrid and Sevilla are trading using the river even though I don't have Sailing? There must be some mechanic I'm not aware of here.

Spoiler Question #2 :

Should my next tech be Masonry? I think I want to start the Pyramids at some point soon.

Neither Gilga or Qin have Writing since OB is not an option but Qin has Sailing because I see that he offers his resources for trade.

Spoiler Question #3 :

What should I do vis-à-vis military safety? Qin and Gilga both declare war at Pleased, no one has a religion and I might become a huge sitting duck if I have only Warriors for the next 30+ turns.

EDIT: Forgot the save!

 

[5tephen]

Question 1 - rivers within your cultural boundaries act like roads for the purpose of trade routes. The road 1S of Madrid completes the connection. Only need sailing for coast and outside cultural boundaries.

The optimal answer to question 2 and 3 will have to come from a more expert player.

Spoiler Non-expert solution to question 3 :

My experience is aside from against the real warmongers, I can afford to just build a warrior per city for military police (when needed.) I get open borders and start resource trading ASAP especially if I can afford to give a favourable trade. Over time this gives positive diplomatic modifiers and is usually enough to get to pleased well before any plotting starts. By this time a religion tends to be founded somewhere on my continent and getting to friendly is not difficult. Once at pleased, if they do start plotting, I can beg to get a 10 turn peace treaty which is plenty time to whip out an army.

 

[Snowbird]

Upon #3... between scouting and checking for "having enough on our hands"... it should be at least ten turns or so warning before having DoW (could be more if you beg something). Tech Archery, whip some of these in that time (do walls before teching archery). Common, what do AI show up with on Immortal at 1000BC? 3Swordsmen+chariot probably. It might be tough but not game ending.

I think people overvalue "can plot at pleased" by a lot. I am not certain what WarAttidude does, so maybe I am wrong. From what I recall, if AI decides to plot it rolls against this value (based on diplo).
Let's say Gandhi is annoyed at you and decides to plot, but since he is such a peaceful guy, he rolls against WarAttidude at annoyed (40%) so only in 60% he actually gets through the check.
Most of guys who plot at pleased are at WarAttidude 80/90% meaning realistic chance 10-20% (after passing all the other checks) (Quin is one 80% guys I believe).
(Not sure if this is 100%, according to spreadsheet Cathy should not plot at friendly.... maybe it is something else, although IIRC this was lexad interpretation and he knew about code way more than I ever will).

 

[Qactus]

...
Pre-chopped a couple of forests while Madrid was building a Warrior and growing for a few turns.
...

Prechopping this early is not a good idea. You need these hammers asap. Also, you lose valuable additional worker turns because you have to step in the forest twice, but most importantly you delay much needed hammers.
If you want to grow your city, just collect the chop with a settler or EXP worker for one turn, then switch back to whatever you were growing on.
Later on, prechopping can certainly be good, in expectation of a tech unlocking a crucial build, but then you'll have worker turns to spare. Here, due to not finishing those chops you have one less worker out in the floodplains now that pottery is in, which makes a huge difference.

 

[dankok8]

Upon #3... between scouting and checking for "having enough on our hands"... it should be at least ten turns or so warning before having DoW (could be more if you beg something). Tech Archery, whip some of these in that time (do walls before teching archery). Common, what do AI show up with on Immortal at 1000BC? 3Swordsmen+chariot probably. It might be tough but not game ending.

I think people overvalue "can plot at pleased" by a lot. I am not certain what WarAttidude does, so maybe I am wrong. From what I recall, if AI decides to plot it rolls against this value (based on diplo).
Let's say Gandhi is annoyed at you and decides to plot, but since he is such a peaceful guy, he rolls against WarAttidude at annoyed (40%) so only in 60% he actually gets through the check.
Most of guys who plot at pleased are at WarAttidude 80/90% meaning realistic chance 10-20% (after passing all the other checks) (Quin is one 80% guys I believe).
(Not sure if this is 100%, according to spreadsheet Cathy should not plot at friendly.... maybe it is something else, although IIRC this was lexad interpretation and he knew about code way more than I ever will).

I'm not too worried about 1000 BC. What about 300 BC when they could show up with a 10-unit stack? When should I tech Archery? I don't even have Hunting so it's a big detour. Maybe tech AH and see if I have Horses?

IIRC Cathy doesn't plot at Friendly but she can be bribed to attack a Friendly target.

Prechopping this early is not a good idea. You need these hammers asap. Also, you lose valuable additional worker turns because you have to step in the forest twice, but most importantly you delay much needed hammers.
If you want to grow your city, just collect the chop with a settler or EXP worker for one turn, then switch back to whatever you were growing on.
Later on, prechopping can certainly be good, in expectation of a tech unlocking a crucial build, but then you'll have worker turns to spare. Here, due to not finishing those chops you have one less worker out in the floodplains now that pottery is in, which makes a huge difference.

I didn't need Worker turns because I didn't have Pottery to put cottages down yet and Madrid already had enough improved tiles. Barcelona was working the oasis tile which I figured was ok. I may have lost a turn like you said and my Worker could be already cottaging the flood plain. I'll check that out.

 

[dankok8]

Question 1 - rivers within your cultural boundaries act like roads for the purpose of trade routes. The road 1S of Madrid completes the connection. Only need sailing for coast and outside cultural boundaries.

The optimal answer to question 2 and 3 will have to come from a more expert player.

Spoiler Non-expert solution to question 3 :

My experience is aside from against the real warmongers, I can afford to just build a warrior per city for military police (when needed.) I get open borders and start resource trading ASAP especially if I can afford to give a favourable trade. Over time this gives positive diplomatic modifiers and is usually enough to get to pleased well before any plotting starts. By this time a religion tends to be founded somewhere on my continent and getting to friendly is not difficult. Once at pleased, if they do start plotting, I can beg to get a 10 turn peace treaty which is plenty time to whip out an army.

Thanks for the explanation. Didn't realize Sailing isn't needed if the entire river is in cultural borders.

 

[Qactus]

...
I may have lost a turn like you said and my Worker could be already cottaging the flood plain. I'll check that out.

It's not so much about about the movement turns. Let's assume you played India (i.e. no turns lost moving around forests), I'd still strongly advise against prechopping this early. The main point was you could have another additional worker ready to work now by completing the chops right away. Get the snowball rolling.
Sampsa posted a really nice T68 save, same tech path and city locations. Maybe just play to that turn and compare your amount of workers, cottages, etc. Then it should become clearer.

 

[Harv]

Is 68 his lucky number? He posted a nice T68 save on my thread as well!

 

[dankok8]

It's not so much about about the movement turns. Let's assume you played India (i.e. no turns lost moving around forests), I'd still strongly advise against prechopping this early. The main point was you could have another additional worker ready to work now by completing the chops right away. Get the snowball rolling.
Sampsa posted a really nice T68 save, same tech path and city locations. Maybe just play to that turn and compare your amount of workers, cottages, etc. Then it should become clearer.

No no… I understand. My point is I wanted to grow the city to size 3 before building a Settler because it would build more quickly. Even with two chops, the Settler would take a while to finish at size 2. Basically I pre-chopped while my Workers had nothing to do and before I wanted to start building a Settler and as soon as I grew to size 3 I finished the chopping and quickly made the Settler. Maybe I didn't explain it too well.

Yep I'll play and compare to Sampsa. And I'm sure he'll be far ahead of me in every way.

But I have a question? Isn't there a situation in development where earlier is not better? For instance if I settled all three of these sites many turns earlier before I had Pottery instead of as I got Pottery, wouldn't I had to run 0% slider much more and slow my tech rate? The key to the early game as I understand it is balanced development. For instance if I have a city working a bad unimproved tile for 2 turns then that means I should have built a Settler 2 turns later and spent those two turns working on another build and/or growing in the capital. And I would also save the city maintenance costs for those 2 turns.

 

[Snowbird]

I'm not too worried about 1000 BC. What about 300 BC when they could show up with a 10-unit stack? When should I tech Archery? I don't even have Hunting so it's a big detour. Maybe tech AH and see if I have Horses?

That is very strange line of thought... In general, you should never tech or do anything because AI might do something (if you settle next to Monty, you should do something ofcourse, cause the outcome is very likely.) instead you should do your thing (typically play diplo until you get military edge and ).

300BC... what good would be archers vs 10 HA or chariots vs 10 swords. C'mmon, really what about knights in early AD... 300BC ...by that time get alpha (by trade preferably), trade for IW, check if metal avalaible... Or bulb maths tech, construction, trade for phants, mass whip, kill Gilgamesh (I think War Elephants are reasonable for 300BC).

 

[sampsa]

Feedback on your T49 save, some comparison to my game:

Spoiler :

Two fog busting mistakes, one minor and one major. Minor one is the green X on the top. It is fog busted without your warrior, since Gilgamesh has visibility on it. From flatland you can see hills two tiles away. Major one is in the bottom, the barely visible red X. This tile is not fog busted and is extremely dangerous. Moving northen warrior 1S keeps every tile in the north fog busted (1E of X is for busted by since it's visible to you because of the hill 2W of cap). In the south, move 1SE. You need to leave the ivory area non-busted for now, but I don't think it's a big deal, as there should be plenty of AI units over there.

I don't really know why I'm this much ahead T49. Madrid is size 4, has a granary done and I'm using this neat trick of building nothing, wasting only 1 per turn but allowing the overflow and chops to store. I think it's important to whip a worker in Barcelona at size 2 (this is quite a lot better than slow building at size 1, especially with EXP), because you should be trying to get those cottages up asap (edit: well, more accurately, the 4th city requires worker turns, cottages can wait). I'll look at earlier autosaves and try to explain everything I did and why I did it.

 

[sampsa]

Answers to your questions:

2) Yes, I think masonry now is the best.

3) Yes, sometimes you get plotted on by Gilga and it's a bit annoying. Then you tech archery and try to setup a city where you can defend with archers behind walls. Gifting a city helps a lot, but now Mids and settling 4th city are draining your so it has to wait. Snowbird's comments are good. Without being a land target you are not very likely to be plotted on.

Qactus is spot on about pre-chopping. It's not good at all this early. Chopping is good! I used a lot of this trick to not build anything in capital, as it has only 1 anyway. This way you can for example 1-turn granary immediately at pottery.

But I have a question? Isn't there a situation in development where earlier is not better? For instance if I settled all three of these sites many turns earlier before I had Pottery instead of as I got Pottery, wouldn't I had to run 0% slider much more and slow my tech rate? The key to the early game as I understand it is balanced development. For instance if I have a city working a bad unimproved tile for 2 turns then that means I should have built a Settler 2 turns later and spent those two turns working on another build and/or growing in the capital. And I would also save the city maintenance costs for those 2 turns.

In short, no, earlier development is better. Of course, settling like 6 disconnected cities that don't have high -tiles will lead to a disaster, but settling at least 3 good spots as fast as possible is better than not doing so.

In our game, Barcelona at size 1 despite being unconnected is generating 3 per turn, so it should be slightly -positive so it's just winning you some /. Thus, even just the oasis tile means this city should be founded asap. The 4th city spot is actually clearly the best one (wet corn), but I chose to delay it in order to get both pottery and masonry quickly. If we started with better starting techs I'd be tempted to settle there first.