Help Me Get Better on Immortal!

[dankok8]

Ok I've decided to use the Music artist for a Golden Age and use the turn 97 one for bulbing Philo. Here is my reasoning for that:

1) Philo unlocks Pacifism and +100 GPP generation is nothing to sneeze at. The Golden Age will be more productive with that. And with just 5 Warriors, I'm thinking of running Pacifism full time anyway. At least until I start to build up for the attack.

2) Cities can grow a little larger and/or have larger food stores so I can max out on Specialists during the Golden Age and get more bang for the buck as Fippy explained.

3) In case that Madrid pops a GE, I may find myself a bit short on GS after bulbing Philo and I want a minimum of one to bulb a piece of Education.

4) I realized that in this case, later may be better because now the GP are cheap and take 200 GPP to pop. Later it will be 400 or 800. If I can dramatically increase the rate for those later GP, I may actually speed up my research more. For instance getting a GP ten turns earlier now may not be better than getting one fifteen turns earlier a bit later when GP's take a lot longer.

5) And of course the obvious reason is using the otherwise useless Artist which I get for free.

 

[Harv]

The only alternative I can think of to golden age now is golden age later. So it’s a question of how much you gain by waiting.

How many towns do you have? One thought I had for one game is what happens if we run democracy during the golden age. The specialists lose 3 beakers each, but the towns gain two hammers.

 

[sampsa]

The only alternative I can think of to golden age now is golden age later. So it’s a question of how much you gain by waiting.

Well, the GS can bulb. Double bulb edu and one bulb into liberalism.

How many towns do you have? One thought I had for one game is what happens if we run democracy during the golden age. The specialists lose 3 beakers each, but the towns gain two hammers.

Interesting thought, but nearly impossible to make it worthwhile. Mainly because golden ages are for running specialists. +100% -generation is insanely powerful. Here a clear problem would also be the -cap.

 

[5tephen]

Qin is already Pleased with me actually.

Sorry! Absence of the green pleased face from Bug mod confused me.

 

[dankok8]

Kept on playing to turn 115 (1 AD).

Spoiler :

325 BC - CS is done. Switched to Bureau right away.
250 BC - Alphabet done. Bulbed Philo founded Taoism in Sevilla and sent the missionary to Gilga. He converted next turn and so did I. Taoism spread to Madrid and Barca which boosted happiness a bit more. Switched to Pacifism two turns later in 200 BC because I had to wait five turns after the last revolution. Also traded with Qin (Alpha, Medi for IW, Sailing, Hunting) and found we have Iron. It's on the plains hill 2W 1S of Madrid. Sailing could be useful for building a Lighthouse or two.
150 BC - Another GS is born and used him to bulb Paper.
25 BC - Music is done, GA is born and used him for a Golden Age. Cities are at happy cap so they are maxing out on GPP.

This is Madrid. I'll switch working the mine to the village 1 SW. Because I'm in Bureau and Madrid pops a GP next turn I'm gonna ease up on GPP there.

Spoiler Scientist or Engineer Analysis :

So far 247 GPP have been allocated in Madrid. 51% are Engineer points so that's 126. Pyramids give +2 so next turn there will be +6 more (Pacifism + Golden Age). Scientists give +18 which becomes +54. However the city only needs 53 GPP not the full 60 so I'll get 5 Engineer points not 6 which is 131/300. So my odds should be 56% GS and 44% GE. Is this correct?

If I pop a GS I'm immediately bulbing a chunk of Education. If I pop a GE, I'm saving him for a Taj-fueled Golden Age.

It's a win-win.

Spoiler Other Developments :

I lost the site west of Cordoba to Gilga but I don't think it's a big deal. After Tao spreads to Cordoba and I trade for Ivory I can grow that city two more sizes. I'll settle a city 3E of Madrid to help it grow some Cottages and it can share the Sheep and Horses.

Gilga is willing to trade Ivory for Stone + Crabs. I think it's a no-brainer.

Qin has a ton of empty space but he's only settled five cities, two of them in the last ten turns.

Gilga is quite behind in tech, doesn't even have Feudalism yet so I should have a solid window to hit him. I'm salivating at the thought of Conqs cutting through Vultures and Swordsmen!

I gotta remember to stop the Chicken Pizza before it's fully built!

 

[sampsa]

Looks smooth. I think I didn't self tech alpha, just waited until one of them had it. It's like 450 saved anyway, no real rush to bulb philo, even if earlier religion helps a bit.

I think the chance of popping a GE is 132/307 which is roughly 43%. Unless... there is a bug and it doesn't work like the interface shows, but instead counts only the number of turns each source was contributing points. This would mean with your current setup you have 1 source of GE-points and 6 sources of GS-points. Maybe someone else can verify, was it discovered a few years back that it works like that?

Why are you rather running mines than the horse btw? I think I'd be tempted to favor cottages to mines as getting the Chicken fail gold might take a long time.

 

[dankok8]

Looks smooth. I think I didn't self tech alpha, just waited until one of them had it. It's like 450 saved anyway, no real rush to bulb philo, even if earlier religion helps a bit.

I think the chance of popping a GE is 132/307 which is roughly 43%. Unless... there is a bug and it doesn't work like the interface shows, but instead counts only the number of turns each source was contributing points. This would mean with your current setup you have 1 source of GE-points and 6 sources of GS-points. Maybe someone else can verify, was it discovered a few years back that it works like that?

Why are you rather running mines than the horse btw? I think I'd be tempted to favor cottages to mines as getting the Chicken fail gold might take a long time.

These guys didn't have Alpha. In fact Gilga still doesn't have it.

I'm gonna switch the mines yea. I mentioned it in my report above when I saw the screenshot. Hope I don't forget and finish the Chicken accidentally!

 

[Qactus]

Ay Caramba, looking forward to la Conquista de Sumeria!

I would have self-teched Paper though, and stored the GS for Education and Liberalism instead. Paper is quite cheap, so a considerable part of your bulb beakers is wasted.
With Philosophy there is also "wasted" beakers, but these are made up by getting access to Pacifism sooner. With Paper it is different, since that doesn't give you an immediate benefit, you're interested in the overall Lib date only. And that might be actually delayed by bulbing Paper, especially if your next GP is an Engineer.

 

[dankok8]

Ay Caramba, looking forward to la Conquista de Sumeria!

I would have self-teched Paper though, and stored the GS for Education and Liberalism instead. Paper is quite cheap, so a considerable part of your bulb beakers is wasted.
With Philosophy there is also "wasted" beakers, but these are made up by getting access to Pacifism sooner. With Paper it is different, since that doesn't give you an immediate benefit, you're interested in the overall Lib date only. And that might be actually delayed by bulbing Paper, especially if your next GP is an Engineer.

It's not really about the earliest Lib date but the earliest Mil Trad and Conq attack. The Taj Mahal Golden Age if I get a GE will be very helpful as well. I was debating whether to bulb Paper but went for it because I will get more GS soon. Just this first one might be a GE. All the other cities are pumping GS. I'm probably gonna go Nationalism then Liberalism and get Mil Trad as a free tech. I'll also need Gunpowder and HBR.

 

[dankok8]

I'm thinking of trading for HBR so I can prebuild some Stables.

 

[dankok8]

Only Madrid can really build a Stable actually because other cities have horrid production and it isn't worth it to whip them out because I need those pop points for Cuirassiers. I'll just backfill Theology and run Theocracy which gives +2 XP. And of course Police State and Slavery at that point. Vassalage is probably overkill.

 

[sampsa]

These guys didn't have Alpha. In fact Gilga still doesn't have it.

I understand. Checked my game and I decided to self teched it too (275BC), which is a shame, as it's one of the few techs AI will trade you even if they have a monopoly.

Paper bulb is not good, as already explained. Usually you should be looking to generate 4 GS - philo, 2*edu, lib. After that, GMs are good. GE is often simply bad, but here you have good use for it since otherwise no Taj. Taj doesn't help your attack date though, so it can be more of a distraction. I'd much rather take a GS than a GE in your position.

I wouldn't get distracted by HBR. Again, it's a tech that you could get via trade, later. I don't think stables are very good, you are just so starved for you need to try to save them whenever possible. As you note, there are other ways to get to 5xp. But even if you can't get theo/vassalage, you should just focus on getting the attack going. 3xp cuirassiers will crush everything he has without a problem. If you can get HBR before you start producing units, probably just capital gets a stable.

 

[dankok8]

I understand. Checked my game and I decided to self teched it too (275BC), which is a shame, as it's one of the few techs AI will trade you even if they have a monopoly.

Paper bulb is not good, as already explained. Usually you should be looking to generate 4 GS - philo, 2*edu, lib. After that, GMs are good. GE is often simply bad, but here you have good use for it since otherwise no Taj. Taj doesn't help your attack date though, so it can be more of a distraction. I'd much rather take a GS than a GE in your position.

I wouldn't get distracted by HBR. Again, it's a tech that you could get via trade, later. I don't think stables are very good, you are just so starved for you need to try to save them whenever possible. As you note, there are other ways to get to 5xp. But even if you can't get theo/vassalage, you should just focus on getting the attack going. 3xp cuirassiers will crush everything he has without a problem. If you can get HBR before you start producing units, probably just capital gets a stable.

I agree. For a faster Conq attack a GS is better.

I find that having an extra promotion can help a lot. I get a lot of value out of the Aggressive trait for example in many of my offline games. For 5 XP I need just a Barracks and either Vassalage or Theocracy. I'll see which is easier to backfill. Vassalage is kind of a more useful civic because it gives +2 XP to all cities not just those with state religion and also increases the number of units that don't cost upkeep. But Taoism may as well spread to my remaining cities too. Plus after I build an army Pacifism becomes less viable because those units will start costing me whereas I still need Bureau and Vassalage doesn't let me keep running that. Either way I don't think that decision is too important.

 

[sampsa]

I think most things that give extra XP are overrated by quite a lot. Often the important thing is to get the war started asap and keep rolling. Having some 5XP units help, but every unit certainly doesn't need to be double promoted. Many units are there just to mop up the easy fights (wounded units, cats and so on). Anyway, what I'm trying to say, I would never delay the attack date for theo/vassalage. Capital stable is probably the best way to get some 5XP units.

 

[dankok8]

I think most things that give extra XP are overrated by quite a lot. Often the important thing is to get the war started asap and keep rolling. Having some 5XP units help, but every unit certainly doesn't need to be double promoted. Many units are there just to mop up the easy fights (wounded units, cats and so on). Anyway, what I'm trying to say, I would never delay the attack date for theo/vassalage. Capital stable is probably the best way to get some 5XP units.

Oh yes. Delaying the attack is out of the question. Just if I have a chance to, I'll switch to for extra XP.

 

[dankok8]

Played on to turn 141 (640 AD). Had bad luck with GP odds.

Spoiler :

25 AD - GS is born and bulbs a piece of Education
75 AD - Education done, start on Nationalism

I realized that the next GS cannot bulb Liberalism. It has Compass, Calendar, and Metal Casting all as priorities before Lib and diverging to research all these techs (no option to trade) makes no sense since Liberalism only takes 7 turns to research by brute force. Knowing this, I switched all the cities to emphasize Merchants instead. Scientists contribute more to beakers so I may have been slowed down in research by about 1 or 2 turns by running Merchants. It especially sucks because the next 3 GP that popped were all Scientists even though Merchants had anywhere between 30% and 70% odds. That's an unlucky streak but it is what it is. I used two of them to build Academies in Madrid and Barca and settled the 3rd in Madrid as a super specialist.

Cordoba is my GP farm and will pop a Merchant soon (100% odds) but it's pointless since I'll whip it down plus I can't get the Merchant to Qin anyways once the war with Gilga starts.

350 AD - Nationalism done, start on Liberalism
520 AD - Liberalism done, take Mil Trad as free tech, start on Gunpowder
640 AD - Gunpowder done

Gilga actually became Friendly. He begged for Aethetics around 200 AD and I gave it to him. Taoism still didn't spread to Qin.

To be continued...

I have a concern about my long term goal.

Spoiler :

What should my long term goal be? I'm thinking to keep researching towards more military techs (i.e. Rifling) and try to go for domination. AP is already built on the other continent so that's out of the question. Culture is out of the question. That leaves space or domination or UN. Domination is the logical route if I conquer my continent and could settle for a UN win.

 

[5tephen]

Could astronomy be your next target? Intercontinental trade routes are lucrative plus galleons are mandatory for war overseas. Might still be a window of opportunity for curraisier war on another continent after you've finished Gilgamesh and Qin.

 

[sampsa]

OK, now you probably understand why it's best to double bulb edu. Self researching liberalism is probably OK if you can't get any of MC, calendar or compass via trade. Double academy and a settled scientist is pretty horrid in my opinion, but of course won't cost you the game, because the grand strategy you chose is an auto-win. Capital academy is fine I guess, but latter two I'd save two for double bulbing astro.

Next goal to start working on should definitely be meeting the rest of the AI, so you should start going towards astro while conquering this continent.

 

[Snowbird]

Double academy and a settled scientist is pretty horrid in my opinion, but of course won't cost you the game, because the grand strategy you chose is an auto-win. Capital academy is fine I guess, but latter two I'd save two for double bulbing astro.

That is a bit problematic after Edu... as you get printing press and after gunpowder also Chemistry and the Method before any Astro bulbs, I guess leaving gunpowder at -1 turn bulbing and finishing PP, 2xbulbing astro and then finishing gunpowder could be an option with 3GS... (well, maybe avoiding engineering does something, but loosing extra movement is a bad option, IMHO).

 

[sampsa]

Ah yes, obviously that. Definitely not optimal to delay the attack that way, but I guess it's affordable. I think saving for bulbing PP and chem is OK to go inter-continental with rifles+cannons.