Help me learn to War!

[Rhavanna]

Hey folks,

So I've been playing Civ4 a bunch again lately, and am trying to branch out in strategy. I usually play on Monarch. I feel like I can win a culture game easily, and can usually manage science or diplomacy. I can't seem to get the hang of war though!

In my most recent game, I started out with a lot of good land to expand into. I managed to trap Egypt on a small peninsula with a few cities, and appeased Byzantium by taking their religion. I put down a bunch of cities and worked on my economy.

Anyway when I got to chokonus, I was able to grab several big cities from Egypt and make her a vassal, pretty much taking her out of the game. However, about 150 turns later, those same cities are STILL revolting every few turns!

I have 2 good production cities, one with 3 settled generals and with vassalage and theocracy I was pumping out lvl3 units. I started a war with Persia, but even with 3 cities dedicated to military production (albeit only 2 very good at it), I was struggling to make much progress until I got cannons out. I finally siezed 4 cities, but I can't keep them! They keep rebelling, and two of them flipped to Byzantium!

I want to try for a domination victory but I've sunk so much time into wars which haven't really gone anywhere that I've fallen behind in tech now.

I am not sure how to really grab large chunks of land. Even in the Egyptian cities I stole, I've been spamming culture buildings, but it's been at least 150 turns since we made peace and they're still like 20% my culture and 80% Egyptian.

It might be too late for this game, but are there any good tips for making real progress towards a domination victory? Thanks!

 

[Seraiel]

You're suffering from cultural pressure through the other cities. Egypt is CRE, so they get free culture, making it even more difficult. AIs generate very much culture in general though, because they build tons of buildings that give culture. You need to not only conquer a few cities from someone, but also all cities that put cultural pressure on the ones that you conquer. If you can't, your only way is to put so many military units in the city, that the revolt-chance decreases to zero (look inside the city screen in the lower left corner where the culture is and hover over it, there you'll find something like "city has an 8% chance to revolt) . Having to do so ofc. cripples your military conquest, because you want your units to conquer enemy cities, and not protect your own.

The easiest way to conquer a lot of land, is by going all in for military, so to not produce anything else (except Granaries and maybe Forges or Barracks) and to also use a lot of Siege, like 30-50% of siege-units. Suicide some siege-wepons against the enemy units, and the killer-units won't have any problems, build reinforcements, mainly of siege-wepons, all the time. Siege furthermore has the advantage, that you can bombard the defenses of your opponents cities (the %-value of a city) , which makes the battles a lot easier ofc.
Early units are more difficult to war with, because the difference in strength is smaller. In the early phases of CIV, people mostly warred with Rifles or Cannons, because those units are a very huge step forward from their predecessors. Also, Rifles can be drafted with the most efficient population / Hammers conversion ratio that's in the whole game. Good units to go to war earlier are basically only Elephants which get usually used together with Catapults, because the Elephant is a lot stronger than all other units of his era.

You probably also aren't using the whip enough, it's the most effective way for production after drafting. Chopping is also very powerful, so have enough Workers, 1 / city is minimum.

Read the forum for Pro-war-tactics, all of this are only the most important basics, but it should be enough so that you can conquer any opponent you want on Monarch.

 

[SpK]

A good way to build cheap units for suppressing rebellion is have 1 city not connected to your TRs, then build warriors.

Your first few conquests should hopefully be early enough the AI didn't build up too much culture, just like everything else, the earlier your start the more it builds momentum

 

[Rhavanna]

Hmm, thanks! I will try to stay more focused on war. It's usually very tempting to slack a few turns and build that theater or university.

I'm definitely not using enough siege units it sounds like. I usually put like 6-7 in a stack but it sounds like I need many more.

I'm still perplexed by the culture thing. I used to play this game a bunch years ago and played on higher difficulties and I don't remember ever having this much trouble pacifying a city!

Thanks for the tips!

 

[rah]

Next time finish them off. Then there are no culture issues and all those troops can be used for better use.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spamming culture is pointless. Will have little effect apart from the 9 inner ring circle.

The cities are revolting as you have left the Egptians alive. Best way to stop this is wiping out the Egptians or keeping a number of city guards there. There is normally a indicator on the culture bar in city that shows you % chance of revolt.

Overall on immortal pending on stage of game a 1200bc stack would have 10-12 units. Early bc attack could have 20 units. If I am going with cuirs I may have 15-20 units and I would be whipping cities each 2-3 turns. Plus using a HE city to pump out units each 1-2 turns.

Overall if you are not using slavery and whipping/chopping for units you are doing something wrong. A stack of 7 may work on noble level but won't work on Emperor or above.

Overall your wars should be done on military power or tech advantage. Cuirs vs LBs. HA vs just archers. Rifles vs lbs. Larger med stacks with trebs/knights and mace vs city walls.

 

[FlyingSwan]

All good points above,wiping an AI out completaly etc,but sometimes I want to keep a vassal stong so it can tech for me.The best way Ive found to avoid culture pressure in these circumstances is the sistine chaple,this with monastrys and temples in your border citys should be enough,if not there are the cathederals/stuppas etc.Failing that there is the "spread culture" spy mission,use a few of these and you will see tiles come back under your control.

 

[rah]

Think how much you could tech yourself if you just built wealth instead of building all the temples/monestaries/cathederals etc.

 

[Seraiel]

Engaging in a cultural war with the AI by trying to build lots of oneself is usually useless, the AIs are just stronger in building on the higher levels and all resources one invests could be troops that would open up the possibility of a permanent solution.

I'm not sure that Warriors are enough to guard a city suffering from pressure btw. I'm not sure, but doesn't one need less stonger troops to supress a city's population? If Warriors can do the same job as Rifles, that would be an awesome info!

 

[FlyingSwan]

I'm not sure that Warriors are enough to guard a city suffering from pressure btw. I'm not sure, but doesn't one need less stonger troops to supress a city's population? If Warriors can do the same job as Rifles, that would be an awesome info!

I always thought they did,I tend to keep obsolete troops for this very purpose.I didnt know you could check the chance of city revolt-is that only with bug mod?

With the building of monastaries/temples etc its an alternative approach if you want an early strong teching vassal,chances are you will only need to build these in a couple of citys.Every game is different depending on size and map type,but quite often you can build these in the AP relgion for the hammer bonus.

As I said at the start of my post I agree that wiping out an AI solves the culture problem,this is a different solution to that problem which Ive made work.I dont buy the argument that the hammers put into 4 or 6 religious buildings that could be put into your own research will outweigh the potential teching power of a decent vassal with 4+ citys.The way I use vassals is for them to tech in a timely fashion the techs I dont want to-compass,optics,constitution for eg.If your teching something usefull like gunpowder while this is going on then you have definately improved your research rate despite some hammers invested in a handfull of relgious buildings.

@sereial,the culture war with an AI can be won easily if you have the sistine chaple,which is why I based my post around it.You are right that without it you will lose the culture war early on.I use the "sabotage building" spy mission quite alot,and it is shocking how many culture buildings the AI will build.

 

[Seraiel]

Yes, it can be won, but you need to see how many resources you're investing into it. The Sistine Chapel is an expensive wonder, then the Temples + Monestaries, all those could be troops which help you end the game earlier, and then the which could be used to steal from the AIs. Even going for Music in the first place could be argued about, because it's not on the path to Liberalism.
I also don't want to tech Compass and Optics, but I try to get some AIs to friendly so they'll trade them with me. Other AIs trading with oneself often becomes impossible when having a Vassal, because of shared diplomatic stance, so instead of having a few Tradepartners and more cities, you determine yourself to one Tradepartner of which you can direct the research and fewer cities, so you have less trading partners, less military and less cities all at the cost of the culture war and that one Vassal.

 

[SpK]

Seraiel - warriors work the same (in a way), in fact better on a hammer by hammer cost basis (on Monarch at least)
Used WB to make a no culture city under pressure from a 1000 culture city, no units was a 9.73% Chance to rebel
1 infantry lowered it to 7.03
1 machine gun to 7.30
1 horse archer to 8.38
1 longbowman to 8.11
1 warrior to 8.92
2 warriors to 8.11

So the city defense bonus matters as well as unit strength.
Therfore warriors end up being the most effective produced unit on a hammer by hammer basis, you just need 3 times as many of them, drafting riflemen or using chariots for mobility might be more effective though

 

[Seraiel]

Thx for that info. If Warriors are so much less effective than the other units, then I don't need to think about them, because upkeep is a major issue on Deity. Thx again .

 

[Rhavanna]

Thanks for all the tips, folks!

Had some better luck in my next game, but the map rolled was continents of some sort. By the time I made contact with the other half of the world Rome had apparently steamrolled everyone and had double the score of the rest of us lol.

I'll keep workin' at it!

 

[Gumbolt]

If you truly want help, post a save. All these general comments won't improve your overall game.

 

[FlyingSwan]

Yes, it can be won, but you need to see how many resources you're investing into it. The Sistine Chapel is an expensive wonder, then the Temples + Monestaries, all those could be troops which help you end the game earlier, and then the which could be used to steal from the AIs. Even going for Music in the first place could be argued about, because it's not on the path to Liberalism.
I also don't want to tech Compass and Optics, but I try to get some AIs to friendly so they'll trade them with me. Other AIs trading with oneself often becomes impossible when having a Vassal, because of shared diplomatic stance, so instead of having a few Tradepartners and more cities, you determine yourself to one Tradepartner of which you can direct the research and fewer cities, so you have less trading partners, less military and less cities all at the cost of the culture war and that one Vassal.

The sistine chapels not that expensive with marble,I definately dont build it without though,and to me its worth building if I have the AP religion,along with the UoS and spiral minaret.
If you plan to Lib military tradition then Music is most definately on the path to liberalism.Not only because you need the tech anyway,but also for the great artist to start a golden age while you build the taj mahal,this route would surely get you a conquest quicker.

I think your bieng overly pessimistic about vassals and trades,how often do we see this-"-1 you declared war on our friend",ok you get the -1 for having a vassal,but thats easily negated with gifting a resource.sharing a religion etc.

 

[Seraiel]

The sistine chapels not that expensive with marble,I definately dont build it without though,and to me its worth building if I have the AP religion,along with the UoS and spiral minaret.
If you plan to Lib military tradition then Music is most definately on the path to liberalism.Not only because you need the tech anyway,but also for the great artist to start a golden age while you build the taj mahal,this route would surely get you a conquest quicker.

I think your bieng overly pessimistic about vassals and trades,how often do we see this-"-1 you declared war on our friend",ok you get the -1 for having a vassal,but thats easily negated with gifting a resource.sharing a religion etc.

You don't understand. When someone is friendly towards you but annoyed to your Vassal, you'll get cautious combined stance, so no monopoly trades and not even a protection from war, and you having Vassals even makes it more likely for an AI to DoW you.

Having Marble and Stone is by far not garantueed, especially not having both. Personally I also find the UoS and the SM to be extremely useless wonders, and you could also trade for Music and have Cuirrs 8T earlier. If you researched Aesthetics + Literature yourself too, it's even more, which can make up for the missing GP. Having 40 Cuirrs at 300 AD opens up a lot of possibilites, you could even conquer those Wonders instead of self-building them, though I'd always prefer to conquer the MoM instead. Self-building all those Wonders comes at a higher cost than you believe, and having the resource doesn't necessarily justify building them. Sistine is 3 Cuirrs and the UoS + the SM are too, so that's 9 Cuirrs, then all your Monestaries and Temples, that's another 11 Cuirrs. 20 Cuirrs are enough to conquer someone, more cities (with the Wonders too possibly) is very likely to outperform all other options, and leads to an earlier finishing date. CIV is about priorities most often, the bigger goal is the more important one.