Help me not suck at Toku

[TCMIV]

It seems like all of my attempts at playing the Japanese end with me quitting after being jammed in to a small corner of a continent with almost no hope of breaking my way out. Between bad traits and bad starting techs, I really can't figure out how to progress with this guy.

Here are some screenshots from my current game, which is actually one of my better ones sadly.

Spoiler :

I actually have a small tech advantage on Victoria in this one, as I have MC and machinery with a great merchant that can currently bulb civil service, but the only iron available is surrounded by desert and right up against Victoria's borders, so I'd pretty much have to settle on it and face a permanent drain on my economy to have any chance at getting the military power needed to do any damage to her. I also have 4 cities, 1 of which isn't in any state to contribute for a while, and she has something like 17 because she settled up against me along the mountains and then rexed to the west afterwards

What's the trick to playing this Civ?

 

[Zeiter]

Looks like you got dealt a rough start, and as Toku no less!

I'm not really sure what to tell you. If England doesn't have longbows yet, then spam out a bunch of axes (and catapults if you got 'em) and take England's cities ASAP. If England will be getting longbows before you can muster that, then, I guess, grab the iron (who cares if you have to plop down a useless city...you're economy still won't be straining with only 5 cities), tech to samurais, built military, and take England's land. That's your only hope at this point, I think, because you're not gonna be able to do much if you are stuck at 4-5 cities the rest of the game. And you might as well use Toku's traits to your advantage.

 

[bakshi]

rush samurai?

 

[mrt309]

I have been in this situation many times coz i don't use early rush strategy easily to prepare for high levels. Not having iron is really unlucky. You don't have horses too i guess. But you have copper. So if i were you i wouldn't research literature. I would go to construction directly after alphabet. Math -> construction and start building catapults. You will need many of them. You can get iron quickly since it's close to your border. In fact you are late now but still doable if this is not above monarch.

A few days ago i was playing with Sitting Bull on monarch and could found 4 cities. I had to take more land and my only neighbor was Elizabeth. After alphabet i beelined to construction. I had iron and i pumped out swords and axes while waiting for construction. After construction was in i whipped cats 2-3 times in all cities and i had 2 medium stacks to wipe her out. IMO this seems like the most appropriate strategy in this situation.

 

[The Almighty dF]

In all honesty, there is no "help me suck less at Toku." His traits, combined with the timing of his UU and the lateness of his UB, have left Toku sucky. ...or, to put it more politely, hard mode. He and Saladin, actually.
Here's hoping that as of Civ5, Firaxis gets help sucking at balancing. I'm looking at you, Praetorian/Forum combo.

 

[TCMIV]

Victoria went in to war mode and then DoW'd me, axemen/spears held her off but by the time I reached the iron site her influence had spread to it Gave this one up as a loss, her iron site was 2 cities deep in her land, so axes wouldn't be able to get it in a timely manner. She has more cities than the 3 other civs on this continent combined, I think I just got unlucky with this one.

 

[eireksten]

You should've been in a war by now. You claimed Copper with your second city and built the Great Lighthouse? That's effectively 11 Axemen right there. Along with wipping in both of those two cities, you could have been the proud owner of most of England by now. The Samurais are usually my second war when playing Japan

Anyway, I'd go for the iron and churn out samurais. Hit Canterbury -> London, before mopping up some of the cities around it. If you fall behind in tech (don't be afraid to), do an espionage recovery with (cheap) castles in your best commerce cities along with courthouses and spies.

edit: I see you gave up. Agree you were probably slightly unlucky with this one, but next time I suggest being more aggressive

 

[TCMIV]

You should've been in a war by now. You claimed Copper with your second city and built the Great Lighthouse? That's effectively 11 Axemen right there. Along with wipping in both of those two cities, you could have been the proud owner of most of England by now. The Samurais are usually my second war when playing Japan

Anyway, I'd go for the iron and churn out samurais. Hit Canterbury -> London, before mopping up some of the cities around it. If you fall behind in tech (don't be afraid to), do an espionage recovery with (cheap) castles in your best commerce cities along with courthouses and spies.

I was worried about what an early rush might do to my fragile no-economic traits economy, but I guess you're right. I wasn't expecting to get pinned in so badly by Victoria, but she put up cities faster than I've ever seen at this difficulty.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In all honesty, there is no "help me suck less at Toku." His traits, combined with the timing of his UU and the lateness of his UB, have left Toku sucky. ...or, to put it more politely, hard mode. He and Saladin, actually.
Here's hoping that as of Civ5, Firaxis gets help sucking at balancing. I'm looking at you, Praetorian/Forum combo.

Saladin at least gets a solid UB and one good trait. Toku gets neither.

 

[eireksten]

Here's hoping that as of Civ5, Firaxis gets help sucking at balancing.

Oh, how I'd love to help Firaxis suck at balancing

 

[TCMIV]

It's a shame since he has one of my favorite UU's, maybe I'll try unrestricted leaders for once and just play as Hannibal of Japan or something

 

[jwez11007]

It seems to me that toku has no real strengths to exploit (great people spamming, cottage spamming, settler spamming, etc.) so he stuggles in early games although i gotta figure his drafted rifles have got to be the most terrifying army come renaissance if one manages to have a semi viable empire at that point...even better toku of england. Anyone managed to get far enough to leverage this?

Just an idea that came to mind...personally i avoid protective leaders like the plague. In fact I don't think I have a protective leader victory to date.

 

[TCMIV]

My first win on this difficulty (monarch, btw) was with a protective leader. But Churchill is a bit better than most I suppose

 

[eireksten]

My first win on Emperor was with Tokugawa. Espionage Economy Domination. I practically based all my teching on espionage after Engineering, eventually outproducing and outdrafting the other civs. Stayed in Nationhood from Nationalism onwards. Barracks in all cities of course, and castles in quite a few. Postponed Economics as long as possible (it doesn't really do much when you've got castles).

Granted, I was far behind in tech for some time, but that just made my espionage economy more efficient. As long as you don't fall behind so much that you can't win a war by outnumbering your enemies with what you've got, you should be OK

 

[vicawoo]

Don't disrespect Saladin. Just play a high micro civic switching game and don't blame him if you go for an inefficient religious strategy.

As for Tokugawa in your situation, learn to do a strong 2 city axe rush. With that in your toolbelt, there's no excuse for being boxed in with copper on monarch.

Toku's starting techs are the two economic techs, so potentially you can go 3 fast cities without worrying about crashing too early.

 

[futurehermit]

You have crap land, England has good land. You also have primarily coastal sites. You have gems in your capital.

First priority for me in this game would be taking something good off of the oracle. I'm thinking construction, if possible.

Second priority for me in this game would be the GLH to help with your expansion along the coast.

Third priority for me in this game would be taking out England asap. Construction off of the oracle would help with this.

Get some cottages down on all those floodplains in England's territory and then keep up the conquest.

 

[dingding]

Hard to believe Toku has such a bad reputation

Actually a couple of days ago I wrote a short battle report of Toku in Deity, maybe that would give you an example. Here is the link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=355009.

From your screenshots I can say it's not a problem with Toku but mainly with some expansion skills: if you could make the second city (Osaka) at the place of Canterberry (fourth city of England), the game (and the rush) could have been much more easier - London is so close.

I can't see the difficulty you were playing in but from that you built the GLH in the second city I guess the difficulty is Emperor or below, in which agressive expansion and rush are quite feasible.

Remember just one thing, just one: the best way to use Toku's traits is to be at War, War, War.

 

[budweiser]

Toku starts with Fishing and The Wheel. That is only 1 tech away from Pottery, 2 from Writing. There is absolutley no reason to do poorly with him. It's all perception because the AI plays him bad.

With Toku you should go up the line to CoL, Conf, Tao and early CS. Obviously.

 

[DigitalBoy]

I think your fear of your economy tanking is somewhat unfounded in this situation. Yes, Tokugawa has no economic traits, which is something to be taken into serious consideration, but you have two gems in your capital. That would have been enough by itself to help you afford an early war, but instead you went the wonder spam route and let yourself get boxed in. And your military situation is only going to get that much worse if you don't claim iron. That pretty much leaves you with trebuchets and longbowmen as your only medieval era units.

Also, what's up with your current builds? You don't really have any military to speak of (4 axemen, 3 warriors, 1 spearman as city garrisons between your whole empire), and you're building triremes? I probably undervalue naval units, but I don't think I'm way off base in saying that naval units are pretty much a waste of hammers in the ancient/classical era if you don't need them to destroy barb galleys or settle an island. And you're building a lighthouse in Tokyo, and have already built a granary, but haven't spent 30 hammers to improve those clams.

 

[UncleJJ]

Toku starts with Fishing and The Wheel. That is only 1 tech away from Pottery, 2 from Writing. There is absolutley no reason to do poorly with him. It's all perception because the AI plays him bad.

With Toku you should go up the line to CoL, Conf, Tao and early CS. Obviously.

Absolutely right. Toku is a top warmonger and can batter his way past opposition that is the same military technology as he is. His promotions give him a huge edge once he gets to Gunpowder, forget building wonders, forget samurai, Toku gets three UUs and he can draft all of them

Early game I agree with budweiser, develop an economy based on farms, cottages and library under HR. Tech towards Liberalism, take Nationhood (if you win the race) and trade for Theocracy. Switch to HR, Nat, Slav, Theo and whip draft your way through the opposition using the most efficient mid game production methods. Toku is about warfare and warfare is about production. Courthouses and (eventually) SP will keep costs under control. Toku still performs well even if he's a technology or two behind but if you follow an espionage late game option with him there is no excuse for the AI having techs you want but don't have