Help me not suck at Toku

Maintenance costs are the main barrier to expansion, so economic traits are highly valued (Fin/Org/Phi).
Wrong. The maintenance costs code even favours big empires compared with say, 6 to 10 cities empires ( the infamous conqueror's plateau ). The issue is making the cities pay up their maintenance, a thing that, without some core techs and enough pop, might prove dificult ( but definitely not impossible ). As in the early game it is hard to have both a big pop and those core techs ( unless you're playing with advanced starts ), yes, expansion can result in some bad issues, because then any settled/ conquered city will be a big sunk cost. That is the reason why having the GLH might result in having a sustainable 15 city empire easily without CoL or Currency ( or even Alphabet ): because it reduces the sunk costs of every new coastal city ( in some cases it might even make every new coastal city a net profit from turn 0 of settling ... I've seen that happening ) ...

Basically the issue is not that the costs are high. The issue is that you don't have the money :D ... atleast you don't have the money to both pay up a high enough science slider and pay the maintenance fee. if you are willing to sacrifice the slider things are diferent OFC
 
You can say it however you want. The bottom line is that if your :commerce: doesn't > your maintenance (at say 40-50% slider), you are going to have difficulty expanding while teching at a reasonable pace.

There are exceptions. If you can nail down GLH, as you mention, or pyramids for rep scientists, fine.

But Toku doesn't really get any help in the wonder dept.

I do believe Toku's best start is coastal, with seafood, and then GLH and more coastal cities.

But if you start REXing with an inland start...good luck with that.
 
Toku should be Agg/Org, and Hammu should be Pro/Org, that way his UU would be more on par with the Skirmishers.

Leave Agg/Pro to a leader who's willing to trade techs more, so that he could be more of a treat and actually have a chance to utilize his buffed up gunpowder correctly.
 
As you know, he WAS Agg/Org, damnit, and I don't know what the designer that nerfed him was thinking. When I roll Toku I think wistfully of his glory days in Warlords and hit regen.
 
He was Agg/Pro in warlords too ;)
 
Okay, vanilla, I mean. It has been a while. I have played toku three times. Twice on Pangaea in 2006 and once last month on an isolated start. Guess which of those games was the most trying.
 
I miss Tokugawa from back when he was Agg/Org and didn't have an awful UB (of course, he didn't have any UB, but neither did anyone else, so it evened out).
 
I miss Tokugawa from back when he was Agg/Org and didn't have an awful UB (of course, he didn't have any UB, but neither did anyone else, so it evened out).

Agg/Org with Toku fits perfectly.
I'd save Agg/Pro for someone with an early UB of average-to-above average quality, and a mid-game/late-game UU.
Also someone starting with Agriculture or Mining.
 
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