Help with French opening gambits

[JonoLith]

Frankly I'm just not certain about the power of the scout at this point. He has no extra movement, and his only real benefit seems to be that rough terrain doesn't hinder him. In a game where everyone moves two spaces a turn, I'm skeptical that it will pay to invest in the scout when you can just get a warrior who will have much more survivability as well as more late game application.

Again, I'll check the scout out and compare the two, but I am very skeptical of the usefulness of this unit.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Scout is cheaper than warrior and has strength of 4.

 

[Polobo]

Scouts are supplemental units that can "scout" easily due to the terrain bonus AND they can likely finish off many barbarians once they have been weaked by a warrior. Toss in the Honor bonus, maybe flanking, and even a great general and you can have an efficient striketeam for something like 3/4ths the cost of a dual-warrior setup.

Curious on what promotions a scout gets that a warrior does not get as well as these could tip the balance once you get a few kills in.

 

[JonoLith]

Scouts are supplemental units that can "scout" easily due to the terrain bonus AND they can likely finish off many barbarians once they have been weaked by a warrior. Toss in the Honor bonus, maybe flanking, and even a great general and you can have an efficient striketeam for something like 3/4ths the cost of a dual-warrior setup.

Curious on what promotions a scout gets that a warrior does not get as well as these could tip the balance once you get a few kills in.

I like the argument for a supplementing team of a warrior and a scout. That makes ALOT of sense to me. Rather then getting a warrior then a warrior, you could get a scout, and then a warrior, and by the time the scout has found a barbarian encampment, or what have you, the warrior will be coming around to help the scout out.

I need to get used to the idea that Scouts can actually attack now.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

It seems to me that if you're French and you don't build Stonehenge, you're doing something very wrong. At +8 culture/turn, Stonehenge, alone, generates as much as two French cities (with bonus), plus one Monument. Allowing another civilization to build this wonder is essentially throwing away the advantage of the French UU, but building it allows you to extend the relative cultural advantage over probably through the Classical era without again lifting a finger. With just the capital and Stonehenge, France will be generating a minimum of 11 culture/turn in a period when other civs are clawing to get into the 4/5 range. Luckily, the French should always be able to build Stonehenge first if they go directly to Tradition -> Aristocracy for the 33% wonder construction speed bonus, directly to Pottery -> Calendar in tech and begin construction of the wonder as soon as Calendar is completed.

I strongly suspect that this will be the dominant opening strategy for France. Stonehenge most likely costs 150 hammers to build and is almost certainly maintenance-free (it's just a bunch of rocks set upon one another), which compares extremely favorably to the Monument, both in terms of cost/culture and maintenance. Don't forget when worrying about the time it takes to construct Stonehenge that other cultures will be wasting their time building monuments at some point in the early Ancient Era. Unless you get rushed right off the bat, you can probably afford the early investment in construction time.

With all that in mind, I would suggest that the best building strategy for the French is scout -> worker -> Stonehenge (not sure about the timing of construction and tech - maybe another scout could be squeezed in between the worker and Stonehenge), with the worker (when completed) immediately moving to improve a high production tile (to speed up construction of Stonehenge). Waiting on a settler until after Stonehenge is finished shouldn't be a big deal for France unless the world is incredibly cramped. This should be a watertight strategy with only an Egyptian civ that builds a worker first and immediately improves a 2 hammer tile even theoretically having the ability to construct Stonehenge more quickly (and even then, I don't know who would win the race).

After Calendar, Animal Husbandry is probably the most useful tech for the pasture yield, and after that I'd probably go Mining -> Masonry and build the Pyramids if I've got the breathing room to do it. With France, speedy workers are going to be extremely useful because they will have more valuable early tiles due to culture. Maximizing the worker speed advantage by also pursuing Liberty -> Citizenship is probably a very good idea, as well, for the French. Build Settlers (hopefully two, which may be possible with Liberty) in between Stonehenge and the Pyramids, and then mix workers and what military units you need thereafter, with the main emphasis being population growth in the cities for more science.

At least the Pyramids part of the strategy depends on having a decent amount of peace and quiet everything above after the construction of Stonehenge will probably have to be changed if you are attached early, but then again, we don't know exactly how much you can lean on the strength of your cities in the early going. I have a feeling that only the Aztecs or Greeks (or other humans) would seriously disrupt this strategy, and even then maybe not fatally so. France with a big early culture lead, lots of fat tiles and superspeed workers could be an absolute behemoth by the time the Classical Age arrives.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I was going to dispute the idea of going for stonehenge before a second city, but I just remembered that I was suggesting the optimal number of cities is 3-4. It is a big gamble, though. I always like two cities before a worker so one can do something else to help the overall cause, but it might be best to wait in this case.

BTW, I like your username

ETA: The ideal tech order for your gambit would be Pottery -> Calendar -> Mining, since you'd want mines to help speed up stonehenge production.

 

[DalekDavros]

I'll be darned if I can find it but I KNOW I saw that Greg's happy due to difficulty (Immortal?) was 9 happy faces.

If someone knows the happy for a different level we'd at least be able to calculate a linear scale.

The scale is given in the Strategy Guide thread. IIRC, it's 9 happy for deity and +1 for each level below deity.

 

[Polobo]

directly to Pottery -> Calendar in tech and begin construction of the wonder as soon as Calendar is completed.

the worker (when completed) immediately moving to improve a high production tile (to speed up construction of Stonehenge).

This should be a watertight strategy with only an Egyptian civ that builds a worker first and immediately improves a 2 hammer tile even theoretically having the ability to construct Stonehenge more quickly (and even then, I don't know who would win the race).

After Calendar, Animal Husbandry is probably the most useful tech for the pasture yield, and after that I'd probably go Mining -> Masonry and build the Pyramids if I've got the breathing room to do it.

How are you going to improve production using?

Farms: via Agriculture
Trading Posts: via Pottery
Plantations: via Calendar

I'd probably suggest going:

Mining -> Pottery -> Calendar

Worker -> Scout -> Warrior -> Stonehenge

Of course timing is the issue; the second scout for sure is optional. But you need to get that "hopeful" mine up fairly quickly and without Honor a second warrior is probably a good idea as well; especially if you plan to Wonderwhore.

The other concern is that while working production your growth is probably going to be stagnate. Since you won't have time for a Granary you will want at least 2 farms built in addition to a couple of mines.

You are going to comparatively light on gold when you get to classical era but you will have a solid cultural foundation.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

I was going to dispute the idea of going for stonehenge before a second city, but I just remembered that I was suggesting the optimal number of cities is 3-4. It is a big gamble, though. I always like two cities before a worker so one can do something else to help the overall cause, but it might be best to wait in this case.

If you end up having to wait a bit before founding additional cities, going straight to Liberty -> Collective Rule might be the way to go. That way city #2 starts off already halfway to it's second citizen. Also, the worker can improve city #2's best tile as soon as it comes into existence, helping it get an even faster start. I'm not sure that founding a 2nd city without any improved tiles (or a worker to do the work) or any SP bonus is more helpful than going straight for Stonehenge, and I'm pretty sure the Collective Rule bonus doesn't work retroactively after a city has been founded. A lot of the decision making will probably depend on the timing of going down the SP trees, but the point of an early Stonehenge gambit is to do so at a breakneck pace.

It seems that the first French SP should pop at turn 9. Based on the Germany gameplay, the second one was actually faster than the first (20 turns as opposed to 25, IIRC...which seems strange...did he get a culture bonus from a hut?), so maybe turn 17. After that, who knows, but once Stonehenge goes up I wouldn't be surprised if France is into or completed with it's 4th SP (presumably Collective Rule) by the time the settler is finished. With rushing looking like a bit of a dead letter in CIV, this strategy may not be as dangerous as it looks. Holding back the second city just a bit in order to get a chokehold on culture just might be the best strategy for France. We shall see. The timing of everything (tech, SP, production and improvement) is really unclear at this point. It might be best to take Liberty as the 2nd SP (if it pops fast enough) and make a settler before throwing up Stonehenge. I dunno. Depends a lot on how fast you tech.

I agree with you about Mining being the appropriate 3rd tech, presuming your capital has hills available for improvement. Mining also puts you one tech away from Bronze Working if you get attacked and need to pump out a few defensive units. It also puts you one tech away from Masonry and the Pyramids.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

I'd probably suggest going:

Mining -> Pottery -> Calendar

Worker -> Scout -> Warrior -> Stonehenge

Of course timing is the issue; the second scout for sure is optional. But you need to get that "hopeful" mine up fairly quickly and without Honor a second warrior is probably a good idea as well; especially if you plan to Wonderwhore.

The other concern is that while working production your growth is probably going to be stagnate. Since you won't have time for a Granary you will want at least 2 farms built in addition to a couple of mines.

Yeah, I agree with you. Mining and worker as the first tech/unit is probably the best strategy. Without mines and improved farmland, both production and growth will stagnate in the capital, and your strategy addresses that. Waiting to send out the first scout is a little bit painful, but you are absolutely right that getting the worker on the board immediately is the way to go when pursuing this strategy.

I have a feeling that the barbarians aren't going to be a serious threat to cities for the first 40-50 turns, so I would probably hold off on the 2nd fighting unit until after Stonehenge goes up.

 

[Polobo]

The second warrior is more a guess that you will not have Calendar researched at that point and/or will not be at city-size 4 where you can work two hills + two farms.

EDIT: depending on the timing a warrior instead of the scout then direct to Stonehenge is possible as well.

You are not going to reliably city-improve and explore at the same time. Working food means getting out much beyond a worker will be a challenge early on, but you need the early growth in order to have decent production to construct a Wonder; % increases only work if you have a strong base to begin with.

 

[Polobo]

I actually forgot about the extra food from Tradition so you can sneak by with 1 farm and 2 hills if you don't mind going stagnate or consider it a bonus that you will be able to still grow while building Stonehenge.

Edit: Then I re-read your policy order and noticed you would go Liberty, Not Tradition

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

I read your policy order and noticed you would go Liberty, Not Tradition

I probably confused you with that. I meant to say that I'd go Liberty -> Collective Rule after already getting Tradition -> Aristocracy. I think Tradition clearly needs to come first for growth in the capital and to allow for Aristocracy when Calendar is done researching.

I'm not really sure about Liberty vs. Honor, but if it's possible to hold off the barbs without Honor, then going Liberty -> Collective Rule would probably be preferable to set up a nice, quick round of expansion.

It's also not clear to me how quickly pop in the capital will grow and whether or not it wouldn't maybe be a good idea to throw up a granary after the worker (further delaying the scout...argh) to ensure that the capital hits at least 3 pop (2 mines, 1 farm) by the time it's ready to start on Stonehenge.

 

[Polobo]

My thought on the granary is it works well if you are NOT going worker-first as you can use some mediocre production to get the granary up and then use that food to work yet other mediocre production tiles. Also, by using the Granary for food it frees up some tiles for early trading posts.

Worker First + Lots of Land means that the value of the Granary is reduced since you can probably get farms and trading posts up and work whichever ones suits your immediate needs.

 

[Polobo]

to ensure that the capital hits at least 3 pop (2 mines, 1 farm) by the time it's ready to start on Stonehenge.

Between Tradition and early farms (from worker first) I seriously doubt you'll be lacking population when you research calendar (3rd); the trade-off is the lack of military and scouting as well as a worker-turn constraint in getting the mines up and running in a timely fashion.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

My thought on the granary is it works well if you are NOT going worker-first as you can use some mediocre production to get the granary up and then use that food to work yet other mediocre production tiles. Also, by using the Granary for food it frees up some tiles for early trading posts.

Worker First + Lots of Land means that the value of the Granary is reduced since you can probably get farms and trading posts up and work whichever ones suits your immediate needs.

Yeah, I'd like to think that with the bonus from Tradition and a worker improving farm tiles quickly that the capital will have at least a population of three by the time the 3rd tech is finished researching. I think that is a rational assumption, in which case the granary is not really needed.

By putting out the worker first, essentially this strategy is trading some early scouting for a powerful culture push. I just think that what Stonehenge provides (+8 culture, probably maintenance-free) that early in the game is absolutely huge, and the French have the means to get to it first. By already investing in Aristocracy, this strategy then folds into Wonderwhoring later on, and a defensive/expansionist strategy until the Renaissance. It may work out well for the French.

 

[Sciguy001]

Yah, as France I probably would want to build Stonehedge and maybe the Oracle, but it seems like a waste of cutlure to adapt Tradition in a lot of cases, I mean +1 food isn't that much, and while it opens up Aristocracy its +1 food in Paris versus +50% food and production while building settlers. Another reason is that Tradition is practically a dead end for France, I mean none of the other Sps in that tree would be optimal for a basic French strategy. Once you would adopt Aristocracy you would immediately go for Liberty, while you already could be decently into the liberty tree (1 Sp from +1 more culture per city and Meritocracy for hapiness). Aristocracy would still be a priority for France because of all of the cultural benefits of Wonders, but with just one or two wonders in the Archaic Age the +33% prod isn't very signficant, especially in comparison to Liberty. I would try to manage building the Stonehenge without Tradition.

Anyways, my opening builds would be Scout-Warrior-Worker-Monument-Settler-Settler?-Granary?-Stonehenge. Scout Warrior should satisfy my exploration needs while I get a worker to improve territory around Paris while in the meanwhile i would build monument for the obvious synergy; settler would naturally come after some territory has been improved and in the meantime France might as well be trying to get even more culture. Then, naturally I need to expand to get the +2 culture which as stated before is most advantageous with like 4 cities. Then granary to get Paris up in going for the Stonehenge which it will start immediately afterword. I put the questionmarks because I'm not sure how necessary they will be in preparation for the Stonehenge, depending on costs in stuff I might want to go Stonehenge after the first settler in order to get it before anyone else does.

Social Policies: Liberty-Citizenship-Representation or Meritocracy. Pretty much self explanatory, I told you why I would never try to pursue Tradition (at first) as France in order to get good expansion out to make best use of their unique ability. Social Polcies after that would very situationally; I might go to Aristocracy afterwords in anticipation of future wonder building and if the Oracle hasn't been built yet, or I might try to pursue another tree (situationally, if you're bustling with hapiness you'd want to start investing in Piety but if you get into a major war you might want to get a foothold in honor). I wouldn't go for the left of the LIberty tree after the right has been filled out, as Collective rule is only good if gotten very early and Republic to me seems quite underwhelming.

Opening tech path: Pottery-Calender-AH-Wheel-Writing-Philosophy. Ok this tech path will last a lot longer than my proposed build for Paris. Explanation: Pottery for eventual Granary, Calender for Stonehenge, AH for horses and food, Wheel for trade routes and horse-based defence, Writing because its a prereq for Philosophy, which gives temples and the oracle. Pretty basic, however depending on the situation AH might be a must to research earlier in or i might have to go to metalworking techs for defence if warriors aren't cutting it.

Alright, I'm going to go ahead and end this super post right here. I don't go into numbers and probably all of my ideas have been brought up previously in the thread, but I don't care. This is still what I'm going to be opening a game with France with. So, yah

 

[Polobo]

Given the large delay on Stonehenge why shoot up pottery/calendary early (ignoring resource concerns)?

Trading Posts are the only real reason to get pottery early but with that much production you will be hard-pressed to keep up with mines and farms to work them (land for farms will not be a problem).

Thinking:

So replace Pottery > Calendar with Mines (which are not even in your initial path)

Not sure I'd want to plan to delay archery until after Philosophy either.

So: AH > Mining > Wheel > Pottery > Calendar > Archery > Writing > Philosophy

With the early scouting you want to do gold such be somewhat plentiful. Plan on trying to purchase the worker instead of building it.

 

[Sciguy001]

Good point, I forgot about rush-buying. However, it seems more benefficial to purchase the settler instead of a worker (providing you get enough gold, however we can not entirely be sure approxiametly how much gold a civ. would have acquired by this point) because workers do not stagnate growth as they did in previous games, so Paris could continue to develop. However you'd might want to get the worker out early so there might be a benefit with spending your gold there instead, however since I am not counting turns it would be hard to tell.

You are right with the technologies too, but my thinking was again that I'm not sure exactly how many turns a research path would take, however it would definately be better to prioritize the worker techs more. Thus a revised version would be AH/Mining-Pottery-Calender-Archery-Wheel-Writing-Philosophy. The only difference is that i wouldn't prioritize wheel so early as you only need to start building roads once you've gotten another city set up, as resources now no longer have to be connected to be utilized and your worker would be spending time improving resources in your second city before you'd start building roads, because it seems like that would be a higher priority, but again it depends on how long it takes workers to build stuff to determine whether there would be empty worker turns that should be spent prebuilding a trade route. But despite those changes I this would probably be pretty effective

 

[iop]

Here's the updated Tradition tree (according to the Strategy Guide:
Tradition +2 Food per turn in the Capital.
Aristocracy: Wonders take -33% time to construct.
Oligarchy: Culture border growth doubled.
Legalism: -33% unhappiness in Capital City.
Landed Elite: +50% growth rate in Capital City.
Monarchy: +20% combat strength to units within the empire's borders.

Since Paris wants to build wonders, and since I really want Oligarchy, as well as possibly Monarchy for defense, Tradition will be my first pick. +2 food is better the earlier you get it - because it makes more of a difference, because you get to work more tiles, and because more population means more science. The only other SP that's useful as #1 is Honor, but I'll try to avoid barbarians till I get it as second SP.

Liberty can wait for SP #3 for two reasons:
(1) It's not useful as first SP since at turn 9 I don't want to build a settler yet.
(2) My second build in the capital will be a monument to push for culture early, so SP#3 will show up quickly enough.

Why build a monument before building a settler (and maybe a worker before that?). Again, two reasons:
(1) whatever the SP cost progression is - whether the cost for the next social policy equals the cost of the current SP plus something that depends on the number of SPs unlocked and cities, or whether the cost for the next social policy does not depend on history but is strictly a function of the number of cities and unlocked SPs - producing 5 culture with one city beats producing 5 culture with two cities in terms of getting the first few SPs quickly.
(2) Since there won't be many cities, it's important to know at the very least where horses are before building the second city, and ideally, you'd know where iron is before you build city #3.

Thus, my Cap will build
Scout -> Monument -> Worker or Warrior (depending on how dangerous life is) -> Settler -> Stonehenge

Second city will build
Scout or Worker (depending on what capital has built) -> Worker -> Settler (maybe monument before Settler to allow some more growth).

Tech order is
AH -> Mining -> Pottery -> Calendar, and then luxury enablers, writing so that Paris can build a library and then the Great Library, and, as soon as possible, iron working (maybe timed so that you get it from the Great Library).

SP order is:
Tradition -> Honor -> Liberty -> Aristocracy, and then either fast workers or fast culture expansion.