Help with Pirates! Yarr! by Paasky

Speaking of which, I will try to get the campaign screen done and test it out for you (sorry forgot about it; too much going on! :crazyeye:).

BTW, here are the pirate/sailor graphics I can convert if you need any of them.
View attachment 234038
View attachment 234039
View attachment 234040

Tom

Yeah, those look great Tom. I could use those. Thanks

Yes I know your busy, that's why I haven't bugged you about the campaign thing. I appreciate the comment tho. Let me know how it comes out.
 
Wow, this is going to be great! Thanks a lot, Guardian! I don't mind, if we have to wait a few more weeks now. We will definitely be awarded with something great for our patience...!

Here are my comments:
  • Enslaved ships should be upgradable. (I think this has been done before, but got lost when againsttheflow disappeared.)
  • In my "ordinary" games, whenever I used privateers it felt like I never got any captured ships. I went through dozens of privateer victories and never got one. Perhaps it is possible to increase the probability for capturing ships? Don't know what the standard in-game value is, but I'd say a value of 50% would be ok for a scenario like this, wouldn't it?
  • I noticed this scenario doesn't have any settlers. This feels kind of strange if you consider that this is the time period when the colonies in the New World were settled. I would like to be able to build settlers, but then we would perhaps need to disable the Dominiation victory condition? (Winning by just building settlers and reaching domination limit just isn't in the spirit of this scenario, is it? But building a settler in order to enlarge your colony or to gain access to an important resource or to establish a strategic outpost somewhere, would perhaps enrich the game? In that case we could leave a few "uninhabitated" islands on the map, in strategically important locations.)

BTW: the Napoleonic times have always been one of my favorite topics in history. I liked the Napoleon scenario that comes with C3C and played it as every major nation. I think over Christmas vacation I'll try out your scenario as well!

Lanzelot
 
Wow, this is going to be great! Thanks a lot, Guardian! I don't mind, if we have to wait a few more weeks now. We will definitely be awarded with something great for our patience...!

Here are my comments:
  • Enslaved ships should be upgradable. (I think this has been done before, but got lost when againsttheflow disappeared.)
  • In my "ordinary" games, whenever I used privateers it felt like I never got any captured ships. I went through dozens of privateer victories and never got one. Perhaps it is possible to increase the probability for capturing ships? Don't know what the standard in-game value is, but I'd say a value of 50% would be ok for a scenario like this, wouldn't it?
Follow this link for a complete discussion concerning capturing ships. Unfortunately this is a design flaw in the game. You can only capture units with a 0 defensive factor.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=39343&highlight=captur

  • I noticed this scenario doesn't have any settlers. This feels kind of strange if you consider that this is the time period when the colonies in the New World were settled. I would like to be able to build settlers, but then we would perhaps need to disable the Dominiation victory condition? (Winning by just building settlers and reaching domination limit just isn't in the spirit of this scenario, is it? But building a settler in order to enlarge your colony or to gain access to an important resource or to establish a strategic outpost somewhere, would perhaps enrich the game? In that case we could leave a few "uninhabitated" islands on the map, in strategically important locations.)
I will give this some thought. I have a lot to do before I get there, but I will put it on my to do list. ;)

BTW: the Napoleonic times have always been one of my favorite topics in history. I liked the Napoleon scenario that comes with C3C and played it as every major nation. I think over Christmas vacation I'll try out your scenario as well!

Lanzelot


Thanks Hope you enjoy it.
 
Lanzelot talked about enslaved ships, not about captured ones. Besides, both captured units and enslaved units can upgrade, if set so. :)

But you are right about the privateers. They can't capture ships with defense nor can any other ship. But if they're set to enslave ships it's a whole new thing. ;)
 
I think enslavement is set at a 33% chance and there is no way to change that (unfortunately). It would be great if there was. Also, it seems that if there have been no units enslaved, then many units will be enslaved at first, but after you have gained many enslaved units, they seem to slow down or even stop sometimes (once after gaining around 12 enslaved units with a total army of 30 or 40, I received no more, even after 20+ battles as a test).

So perhaps along with the 33% enslavement chance, there may be another hidden factor to control the number of enslaved units.

Tom
 
I think enslavement is set at a 33% chance and there is no way to change that (unfortunately). It would be great if there was. Also, it seems that if there have been no units enslaved, then many units will be enslaved at first, but after you have gained many enslaved units, they seem to slow down or even stop sometimes (once after gaining around 12 enslaved units with a total army of 30 or 40, I received no more, even after 20+ battles as a test).

So perhaps along with the 33% enslavement chance, there may be another hidden factor to control the number of enslaved units.

Tom


I have been testing this and what you say is correct Tom. I can live with this tho, because I think with the combination of units built and enslaved units, you will eventually run up against the max number of units. The problem I am having, is that I can not upgrade the enslaved ships. I have upgrade checked for the enslaved unit, and culture conversion is allowed. However, the enslaved unit is retaining its culture and will not upgrade. Any suggestions?
 
I have been testing this and what you say is correct Tom. I can live with this tho, because I think with the combination of units built and enslaved units, you will eventually run up against the max number of units. The problem I am having, is that I can not upgrade the enslaved ships. I have upgrade checked for the enslaved unit, and culture conversion is allowed. However, the enslaved unit is retaining its culture and will not upgrade. Any suggestions?

So the enslaved units cannot be upgraded at all? I know enslaved units can enslave other units, but I've never tested upgrading them... I'll do a quick test myself.

EDIT: I had no problem upgrading an enslaved land unit... not sure if sea units are different somehow.

Tom
 
So the enslaved units cannot be upgraded at all? I know enslaved units can enslave other units, but I've never tested upgrading them... I'll do a quick test myself.

EDIT: I had no problem upgrading an enslaved land unit... not sure if sea units are different somehow.

Tom
LOL, I didn't try the land units. I'll try one of them and see what happens in the scenario. It may be something in the setup, I don't know. I'll check and see.
 
OK take a look at this. I have made some changes in the map, added some units and changed some others. It works mostly *** BUT THIS IS NOT A FINISHED SCENERIO ***
I putting this up for you to review and comment.

First I want to point out that there are 46 ship configurations in this scenario. Many of them, half to be exact are variations of the other half. Example: there 5 different frigates, 4 Galleons, 3 sloops' 3 numenor, ect.

Download Pirates Beta redux


Question 1: Do you really want that many different ship? Is it confusing?

Question 2: Do you want a bigger map that would include more of the colonies (N America & S. America).

Question 3: Do you want an even larger map to include more of europe, North africa and include the Barbary Pirates and some African Pirates.

Question 4: Do you want smaller scenarios like Carribean, Mediterranian, Indian Ocean, and China seas.
 
So the enslaved units cannot be upgraded at all? I know enslaved units can enslave other units, but I've never tested upgrading them... I'll do a quick test myself.

EDIT: I had no problem upgrading an enslaved land unit... not sure if sea units are different somehow.

Tom

OK Tom, got it working. Both land and Sea unit that are enslaved can be upgraded.
 
A couple notes from me, 1st this is amazing how fast this is happening.

Question 1: Do you really want that many different ship? Is it confusing?
No but we do need versatility like ships that can haul 2 treasures but is slow due to weight
a medium speed ship that carries 1 treasures. Both of these capable of being (1) remove the treasure(s) and enslaved or simply combine both effects.
fast scout type ships, ships that can do epic battles while important ships make a get away. Simply or not so simply the majority of the battles are in the ocean and choosing what ships you using is like what units you'd bring to an invasion on land.

Every nation needs the Unmarked Privateer, I can not stress how much this ship will change the tide of all situations, so considering this unit is very important.
Question 2: Do you want a bigger map that would include more of the colonies (N America & S. America).
As it is now ships departing the New World can pick a heading and never be found so changing the map size will change the frequency of naval battles that is this game's main element.
Question 3: Do you want an even larger map to include more of Europe, North Africa and include the Barbary Pirates and some African Pirates
Maybe the insignificant Cherokee group could be removed and replaced by a slaver group in which if you choose to capture a slaver ship that might say deposit barbarian units on land, maybe you can capture that slaver ship and return it to Africa for the chance of a few crew members, but at any rate keeps you out at sea
Look at each of the main cities in Europe, they contain a major unit that can hold that city against major attacks adding cities to this concept while inadvertently assisting on hardening the main city.
Question 4: Do you want smaller scenarios like Caribbean, Mediterranean, Indian Ocean, and China seas.
Look at the new attention that has occurred just in the last few days if unique scenarios were made they would be played you can bet on it, it is just a matter of showing people that it is available and/or being created.

I propose a new element, currently depositing a treasure in Europe you get victory points, but what if you took it to another city maybe to recieve a FAVOR from the King, that could be a new Flagship, or a Golden Age, a quantity of Gold to help you hurry things that you are building
 
Another element that exist here I believe should stay is that if you are sailing your treasure(s) to Europe you have left your Caribbean and abroad less active with your units, this is the element that the Prirate factions need for its ability to win this scenario, While capturing these treasures does give us components for something major, 1 single treasure equals a very small portion.

I will load this up and try to describe it further if you don't know what I mean.
 
Another element that exist here I believe should stay is that if you are sailing your treasure(s) to Europe you have left your Caribbean and abroad less active with your units, this is the element that the Prirate factions need for its ability to win this scenario, While capturing these treasures does give us components for something major, 1 single treasure equals a very small portion.

I will load this up and try to describe it further if you don't know what I mean.

Remember when you load this, this is NOT a complete scenario but a beta version for testing different aspects of the scenario.

The finished scenario will be very different.

I am currently working on the units. There are 46 ships in the game, and some are inditingguishable from others. The pirate ships are way overpower or the european vessels are way under-powered. You mentioned that this was designed as a multi-player game. therefore in the interest of fair play, all players should start the game on an equal footing, and should have an equal chance of winning the game based on player abililties only. If some players are playing as pirates and some are playing as europeans, then all must have equality. Right now you 8 civs in the game and 2 of those are none playable.

How many players do you want in each game?

I assume you do not want the ships to be historically accurate. Example: british ships of the line typically carried between 80 and 100 guns during this time period and netherlands had no ships at that time that carried more than 40 - 45 guns. The French had a small fleet and the spaniards had a large fleet but only a small number of ships that carried 100 gun or more with majority of their heavy Galleons carrying about 60 guns.

Victory points are calculated on the following condition:

City elimination
Culture Value for 1 city
Culture Value for Civ
% of terrain for domination
% of population for for domination
Wonder cost
defeating opposing unit
advancement cost
city conquest
Victory point scoring
capturing special unit
Gold for capture

Right now the game is set up for Domination, Space Race and Conquest.

What is your understanding of how you win this game?

As I said, I am currently reworking the units. Any info you can give me will greatly assist this and affect the changes I make.
 
Remember when you load this, this is NOT a complete scenario but a beta version for testing different aspects of the scenario.
I understand, the things I've mentioned are from what I noticed from the previous version

The finished scenario will be very different.
excellent

I am currently working on the units. There are 46 ships in the game, and some are inditingguishable from others. The pirate ships are way overpower or the european vessels are way under-powered. You mentioned that this was designed as a multi-player game. therefore in the interest of fair play, all players should start the game on an equal footing, and should have an equal chance of winning the game based on player abililties only. If some players are playing as pirates and some are playing as europeans, then all must have equality. Right now you 8 civs in the game and 2 of those are none playable.
That might be true but consider as some turns pass by and the Pirates having only 2 cities do not have the production power of just one european nation and thier are 3 plust the Netherlands which almost certainly attack the Pirates due to proximity. Although The Pirates Ships are overpowered as you say we are limited to attacking only one colony and holding it, leaving units there leaves the pirates as it is without crew members on those ships. This forces us to move into a rid the seas of ship before we had a real chance of taking cities.

I don't know how many cities each nation has but if the Pirates were given an equal amount of cities, and leveled the ships power this would become just another ordinary game.

How many players do you want in each game?
5 players minimum( 2 pirates, 3 European with the option to play the Netherlands and the Undead)

I assume you do not want the ships to be historically accurate. Example: british ships of the line typically carried between 80 and 100 guns during this time period and netherlands had no ships at that time that carried more than 40 - 45 guns. The French had a small fleet and the spaniards had a large fleet but only a small number of ships that carried 100 gun or more with majority of their heavy Galleons carrying about 60 guns.
For this I would the many would consider this desireable, but as the scenario was a (Pirate) privateer would have very little impact on 90 gun British Ship of the line

Victory points are calculated on the following condition:

City elimination
Culture Value for 1 city
Culture Value for Civ
% of terrain for domination
% of population for for domination
Wonder cost
defeating opposing unit
advancement cost
city conquest
Victory point scoring
capturing special unit
Gold for capture

Right now the game is set up for Domination, Space Race and Conquest.
Well Space race makes no since, nor would it make sense to reach Iron ships, we should remain in the age of Sails but be able to impove on that concept. So a 100 gun Frigate would only be achieved throw a masterful run at the tech tree

What is your understanding of how you win this game?
From what I can tell, the Europeans win by getting teasures to thier European Capital receiving victory points, the easiest way to win, second Dmination but much more dificult to achieve. As for the Pirates I thinks its Wonders, it takes bringing stolen treasures to our capitol to receive a portion of a Wonder, this is the easy way, second Domination but much harder to acheive since we don't have invading armies

As I said, I am currently reworking the units. Any info you can give me will greatly assist this and affect the changes I make.

France, British and Spain have unique units, like for example currently the British receives the Mounted Dragoon unit which a Buckineer or a Pirat captain has no chance of beating, while a Pirate has a Privateer that can move in on a British Flag ship strike it and run and hide later to seek it out again and destroy it, but if that Flag ship turned the right direction it could destroy the Privateer with its remaining strength. So the Privateer's advantage over the powerful flagship is its greater range/speed.

Please I ask this, Consider that each European has it unique way of wining the game with the possibility of bringing in an allie to strengthen its chances of success, but there is alway the chance that they are double crossed at the end of the journey if they have put inplace a strategy good enough to take that advantage. Like wise the Pirates might take advantage of the other Pirates shortfalls in battles, they will not be allies but they might work together
 
I am planning a new map for this scenario based on the one below.

Caribbean Map

I am almost ready to post the new beta version FOR TESTING.
I have added a couple more vessels, and change several to what they should be.
I have not yet, adjusted the combat capabilities of the units.
I have added some new units and improvements.
The europeans will now be able to create naval officers.These will be upgradable from Captain to Commodore to Admiral.
Pirates can capture gold and return it to their home port and add it to their treasure trove.
Pirates have a new source for recruits. The Tavern will produce a conscript Buccaneer every 5 turns, which can be upgraded to a Buccaneer, which can be upgraded to a Buccaneer 2. Buccaneer 2 will have a name change before final release when I decide what capabilities to give him.
A new Title screen has been added.

There's quite a bit to do but hopefully, I can give you the beta in a couple of days.
 
Here is a full beta release. There is one error that has not yet been fixed, however it is cosmetic and does mot affect game play. The error is that the Buildings Lg and Small pcx files in the art\city screen folder needs to be redone.

Check this out let me know what needs to be fixed, changed or added.

Oh, and I am still researching ship strengths so they have not changed yet.

Here's the Files : Pirates
 
would like to try this out. do i unzip this file in the conquest scenarios folder or do i need the original and unzip over it?

thanks
 
would like to try this out. do i unzip this file in the conquest scenarios folder or do i need the original and unzip over it?

thanks

You do not need the original. This is the complete scenario (Beta Version)

The zip file contains the following files:

Folder:pirates -
Folders:Art
Text
Pirates! Yarr 2.BIQ
x_title.pcx

Put the Pirates Folder in the Conquests/scenarios folder. Copy the BIQ file to the same folder. the x_title goes in the Conquests Main folder. (If you want to replace the title screen of the game.) I suggest you backup the original x_title.pcx file, in case you want to change it back to the original.
 
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