Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Dean_the_Young]

When exactly did it happen, and what was that? Have I missed something important?

While I am not claiming it's anything close to enough, there have been occassions when Kilimorph, so set on opposing me, has contrasted her own nature. The gambling ban, for example, would be one of them: you all know, not least because of the expanded explanations I gave, that I was punishing unnecessary gambles of all sorts: not every minor petty required risk, but risks that didn't need taking. While Kilimorph can do to soften that, it isn't something to directly oppose.

Kilimorph is the Goddess of Responsibility. That is very much in her sphere, and by all rights she should have supported that, though made her own distinction. This is why Kilimorph and Tali are opposites: Kilimorph doesn't support unnecessary risk taking, while Tali does.

But Kilimorph was so set on opposing me that she did, promising to support the Grigori in taking more unnecessary risks and gambles. Kilimorph was so fixated on that she and Mammon were enemies, and not why she and Mammon were enemies, that she completely missed that I was in line with responsible action and she set herself on the other.

That incident ended before too much corruption could be done: I pulled my curse for my own reasons, and she didn't do much with no force to oppose. But in the future, I could well do the same thing again, and if Kilimorph continues to act solely in opposition to me and not in line with her own sphere, it would be inevitable that she will eventually corrupt it and Fall.

For example, the upcoming curse she plans for Comillo: that is an un-Kilimorph thing to do if she intends to repeat my wither/plague/status ailment curse. It's almost an all Lore, the only 'curse' that the non-Evil gods have done was Lugus' curse of vampyrism, which is less a debilitating curse and more a constant and never-ending prickle to their conscious. Kilimorph's opposition and displeasure would nearly always be made in one of two ways: recalling her blessings, or outright military opposition. Disease and horrific effects are the domain of the Ashen Veil and the gods of evil, not gods of Neutral and Evil.

 

[Diamondeye]

the game

Damn.

:suicide: Dammit! FireBlaze, I hadn't noticed if it wasn't for your reply.

Dean really is sneaky but it is a relief that not even he can win the game

 

[Diamondeye]

While I am not claiming it's anything close to enough, there have been occassions when Kilimorph, so set on opposing me, has contrasted her own nature. The gambling ban, for example, would be one of them: you all know, not least because of the expanded explanations I gave, that I was punishing unnecessary gambles of all sorts: not every minor petty required risk, but risks that didn't need taking. While Kilimorph can do to soften that, it isn't something to directly oppose.

Kilimorph is the Goddess of Responsibility. That is very much in her sphere, and by all rights she should have supported that, though made her own distinction. This is why Kilimorph and Tali are opposites: Kilimorph doesn't support unnecessary risk taking, while Tali does.

But Kilimorph was so set on opposing me that she did, promising to support the Grigori in taking more unnecessary risks and gambles. Kilimorph was so fixated on that she and Mammon were enemies, and not why she and Mammon were enemies, that she completely missed that I was in line with responsible action and she set herself on the other.

That incident ended before too much corruption could be done: I pulled my curse for my own reasons, and she didn't do much with no force to oppose. But in the future, I could well do the same thing again, and if Kilimorph continues to act solely in opposition to me and not in line with her own sphere, it would be inevitable that she will eventually corrupt it and Fall.

For example, the upcoming curse she plans for Comillo: that is an un-Kilimorph thing to do if she intends to repeat my wither/plague/status ailment curse. It's almost an all Lore, the only 'curse' that the non-Evil gods have done was Lugus' curse of vampyrism, which is less a debilitating curse and more a constant and never-ending prickle to their conscious. Kilimorph's opposition and displeasure would nearly always be made in one of two ways: recalling her blessings, or outright military opposition. Disease and horrific effects are the domain of the Ashen Veil and the gods of evil, not gods of Neutral and Evil.

This should say Good. I can read Dean's mind, you see.

 

[Lgaard]

While I am not claiming it's anything close to enough

good point

there have been occassions when Kilimorph, so set on opposing me, has contrasted her own nature. The gambling ban, for example, would be one of them: you all know, not least because of the expanded explanations I gave, that I was punishing unnecessary gambles of all sorts: not every minor petty required risk, but risks that didn't need taking. While Kilimorph can do to soften that, it isn't something to directly oppose.
Kilimorph is the Goddess of Responsibility. That is very much in her sphere, and by all rights she should have supported that, though made her own distinction. This is why Kilimorph and Tali are opposites: Kilimorph doesn't support unnecessary risk taking, while Tali does. But Kilimorph was so set on opposing me that she did, promising to support the Grigori in taking more unnecessary risks and gambles. Kilimorph was so fixated on that she and Mammon were enemies, and not why she and Mammon were enemies, that she completely missed that I was in line with responsible action and she set herself on the other.

False. She was just supporting an adventurer who was fulfilling her quest. She was not supporting unnecessary risk.

Exploration is not unnecessary. Exploration is a must. Civilization which is neglecting the information on how the world outside its borders looks like is exposing itself to the unnecessary risk.
Exploration is the risky task which individuals take for the benefit of the whole society. The total balance is positive. One must take a risk in order to mitigate the other risk for the whole society. That's how it works. Ethos of the explorer's work is the same as miner's or soldier's. All of them take risk because they know their work is for the benefits of others, and the total balance is positive.

This is my point of view. But I'm not going to defend it fanatically as you do yours. It was rather to show you there might be two completelly different view on the same issue and both of them have their reasons.

That incident ended before too much corruption could be done: I pulled my curse for my own reasons, and she didn't do much with no force to oppose. But in the future, I could well do the same thing again, and if Kilimorph continues to act solely in opposition to me and not in line with her own sphere, it would be inevitable that she will eventually corrupt it and Fall.

And do you think it is enough reason to attack him/her right now? So far I see your tactics is to open a preventive fire into everyone who makes his attempt to discuss your way of dealing.

For example, the upcoming curse she plans for Comillo: that is an un-Kilimorph thing to do if she intends to repeat my wither/plague/status ailment curse. It's almost an all Lore, the only 'curse' that the non-Evil gods have done was Lugus' curse of vampyrism, which is less a debilitating curse and more a constant and never-ending prickle to their conscious. Kilimorph's opposition and displeasure would nearly always be made in one of two ways: recalling her blessings, or outright military opposition. Disease and horrific effects are the domain of the Ashen Veil and the gods of evil, not gods of Neutral and Evil.

Good hints. Now he/she can plan his/hers actions following the Lore. I think you could have started with this as soon as you had found Kilmorph's plans inappropriate lorewise. This is the input that is expected from the player who knows the Lore better than others.


But all is well what ends well. Now, Babele, you have've got hints on what sort of reactions is better according to more lore-houndish part of us.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

My super-duper, one-time only, uber-frank post. Don't get used to it.

good pointFalse. She was just supporting an adventurer who was fulfilling her quest. She was not supporting unnecessary risk.

Exploration is not unnecessary. Exploration is a must. Civilization which is neglecting the information on how the world outside its borders looks like is exposing itself to the unnecessary risk.
Exploration is the risky task which individuals take for the benefit of the whole society. The total balance is positive. One must take a risk in order to mitigate the other risk for the whole society. That's how it works. Ethos of the explorer's work is the same as miner's or soldier's. All of them take risk because they know their work is for the benefits of others, and the total balance is positive.

This is my point of view. But I'm not going to defend it fanatically as you do yours. It was rather to show you there might be two completelly different view on the same issue and both of them have their reasons.

Of course there are different views. But I wouldn't be defending my god's views if I didn't place his higher, and make every argument to support it. In this case, I (as Mammon's player) would argue: exploration is not necessary: isolationism, or just a defensive style, is perfectly acceptable and responsible. Certainly exploring ruins and taking unnecessary fights isn't necessary at all: every quest of "go there and kill that" given by the gods isn't necessary, it's an option for killing.

To step super, out of character, to the point I'm not even describing my own character views: no, I do not believe everything I say in Mammon's position. But I feel I should made defenses of Mammon's position, even as OOC, because if I don't people wouldn't treat it as valid and would ignore arguments to the contrary as 'just in-character', when in fact they are real arguments to challenge them.

And do you think it is enough reason to attack him/her right now? So far I see your tactics is to open a preventive fire into everyone who makes his attempt to discuss your way of dealing.

But of course. If they can't defend their own views from arguments, they don't have the right to expect theirs to carry as much weight. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the gods war.

And again, this is super-OOC, so OOC that I'm out-of-playing-out-of-character: argue back. Make a defense of your actions, and challenge mine if you think justified. My sphere is Mind: I'm supposed to challenge your beliefs, twist them to my own uses. I am an opposing god, and I can't simply stop because you're moral and make moral arguments, even in OOC. I have to challenge you, all of you, lest you think that simply because evil makes an argument it is false and wrong. And if worst comes to worse, you can always resort to "just because" and not give a darn about what I say: I may needle you for it, but you shouldn't need my or my god's approval for your actions. I am the opposition: don't expect me to be reasonable (And by reasonable, I mean agree with you. I think my unreasonableness has plenty of reason behind it.).

In terms of "Unseen Academicals" of the Discworld series, I am the staff member who is required to do evil actions, which serves not only me but you as well..

Good hints. Now he/she can plan his/hers actions following the Lore. I think you could have started with this as soon as you had found Kilmorph's plans inappropriate lorewise. This is the input that is expected from the player who knows the Lore better than others.

Well, I have, but I thought everyone understood the nature of the spheres when they signed up: gods don't have free will and merely happen to embody one trait or the other, those traits dictate him or her.

Outright telling other people how to act/not act seems to nullify that this isn't just a game over the Grigori, but between each other as well.

But all is well what ends well. Now, Babele, you have've got hints on what sort of reactions is better according to more lore-houndish part of us.

True. And don't ever expect me to be this frank again: you screw up (and even if you don't), I'll jump on you with both feet and take advantage of it.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

:suicide: Dammit! FireBlaze, I hadn't noticed if it wasn't for your reply.

Dean really is sneaky but it is a relief that not even he can win the game

Oh, I can. Rest assured.

But I was rather confused why everyone thought I was claiming to win the game, when I only said I had won a battle...

 

[Lgaard]

[...] I do not believe everything I say in Mammon's position. But I feel I should made defenses of Mammon's position, even as OOC, because if I don't people wouldn't treat it as valid and would ignore arguments to the contrary as 'just in-character', when in fact they are real arguments to challenge them.[...]

Frankly, to me it is just opposite. When I see another of your posts with twisted Mammons-like logic I feel as if it was still IC in the thread which is supposed to be OOC. I really cannot treat it 100% seriously. Maybe I should try harder.

The whole point here is that appearently we have very different approaches to what is going on here. I'm here for pure fun.


On a side note: isolationism is not an antonym of exploration. English/Brits were considered isolationists in terms of European foreign affair/politics in some (though definitelly not all) ages, same time being the world's leader in exploration. Portugal/Spain was isolationistic economy-wise (merchantilism) while conquistadors were exploring the New World. Modern Norwegians (not Vikings) were considered defensive and pacifists same time when Amundsen was reaching the South Pole. Etc.

 

[Babale]

Yep, my curse was gonna be an army of Dwarves and Earth Elementals who show up at Gerran's door and demand the lawful execution of Comillo.

 

[Diamondeye]

Oh, I can. Rest assured.

But I was rather confused why everyone thought I was claiming to win the game, when I only said I had won a battle...

No, Dean. Nobody can win the game

 

[ryansee]

well hi 1st of all.
i want to ask if my request to be Arwan was accepted. if it was i would like to ask if my claim over the area of the tower or the ppl that lived there is still in power. and if i have the right to curse punish or do anything to the units that caused harm to this place. and the guy who had arwan clearly warned against the touching of this tower..

 

[ryansee]

well i want to ask am i able to punish or curse a unit who seems to be protected or playing a role for a god.
as a quest im thinking of requesting apeasment or a way to make me forgive the garintes for the crime imposed on the tower. im gonna tell him that i want him to think of something out himself that he must find a way to please me . and if he fails im still thinking of a punishment within my power. but if he does well im still also thinking. i wonder if i can make my intervention with this idea now . im not adding anything only words. and i wonder if this is a good idea.
P.S well english aint my main language and may have mistakes and i would like to ask if i can type my intervention here and if someone can proof read it. i dont know if this is possible if it is il be rly thankfull

 

[Lgaard]

Ryansee:
Picking up Arawn is OK with me, but the ultimate decision maker here is Verdian (the player).
Arawn is a tricky one to RP. Before you start maybe it would be quite useful to discuss with Vandal Warlord why he had abandoned Arawn few rounds before.

I think it might be worthy to wait until Verdian posts the latest narratives (he is currently still playing the save) before you start to plan your intervention. We still dont know what has happened to the Tower of Arawn.

 

[Bootsiuv]

The only problem with playing Arawn is that, lore-wise, he's a very boring god....he never interracts with the mortal realm i.e. Erebus. He simply doesn't care, as far as I can tell. He won't even answer the prayers of his most loyal and faithful followers, which may be why he doesn't have many to begin with.

I suppose some lenience would be allowed for the person who is arawn, due to the fact that, if one were going by lore, every intervention would be "I do nothing", and that's not very much fun.

 

[ryansee]

well basically i had a plan to change aeron and unleashing his sphere . all this is about arwan all he needed was an event to trigger his emotions i had a plan for this and well i had a plan for an intervension i may get the names wrong but im going to change lore abit to allow me to change the god. well my intervention was gonna be this. i dont know if this action will actually make him fall but he was alrdy on the path of falling:

Arwan god of death.

The great god was watching over the legion of spirts entering through gyras portal . the god was watching over every dead soul thinking about history of everyone of them.

he was reminded of the people of the tower his followers. he decided to bless them and help them as he walked to his view of erebus in his throne room. he was shocked the areas around the tower pillaged. courpses of his followers filling the ground

Somethign wierd happened to the god a wierd emotion a though... appeared sadness. this emotion was great he heard of wht happened to danlin but he was a weak god. arwan was then filled with an emotion he had never felt.. rage, anger an emotion that urpted in his heart .

His anger was great he called upon the souls of his dead followers to him . he asked them who did this to them . they said one thing the grigori. arwans anger was great when he used his magic at that moment he send his angels of death to glorify the dead and build a monment in thier name.

gerran was sleeping but then he was awaken suddenly by a wraith
with a great sword in its hand . it moved toward gerran plunging his sword into gerrans chest . gerran expected death but no. he felt the pain of death . the pain of his heart bieng riped to shreads but he wont die. the wraith then spoke with a voice of greatness . the voice speak with power and an ancient sense to it.: gerran follower of cassiel your followers have killed my servants and worshipers u have stirred an anger of a god whos power has not touched erebus since the dawn of time.. i shall curse your people with a curse that never touched this plane and no god will be able to remove it since its only in my own domain... i shall grant u a chance of time to gain my forgivness if you do not act fast my curse shall fall on you and all of ur followers and you shall beg for death to ease ur suffering..

gerrans wounds heal after the wraith dissapear.

p.s this is full of errors i know i would be really gratefull if someoen can proof read it

Spoiler :

basically you are tasked with doing an act out of your mind that has to please me the god of death. the choice of action is all yours. BUT if u choose to ignore it . u shall be cursed with a plauge that no god can interfere with . it lies in the domain of the death sphere and this is the 1st time for this type of magic to enter erebus by the hands of arwan. nercromacy is a corrupted form of death magic.

 

[Diamondeye]

well basically i had a plan to change aeron and unleashing his sphere . all this is about arwan all he needed was an event to trigger his emotions i had a plan for this and well i had a plan for an intervension i may get the names wrong but im going to change lore abit to allow me to change the god. well my intervention was gonna be this. i dont know if this action will actually make him fall but he was alrdy on the path of falling:

Arwan god of death.

The great god was watching over the legion of spirts entering through gyras portal . the god was watching over every dead soul thinking about history of everyone of them.

he was reminded of the people of the tower his followers. he decided to bless them and help them as he walked to his view of erebus in his throne room. he was shocked the areas around the tower pillaged. courpses of his followers filling the ground

Somethign wierd happened to the god a weird emotion a though... appeared sadness. this emotion was great he heard of wht happened to danlin but he was a weak god. arwan was then filled with an emotion he had never felt.. rage, anger an emotion that urpted in his heart .

His anger was great he called upon the souls of his dead followers to him . he asked them who did this to them . they said one thing the grigori. arwans anger was great when he used his magic at that moment he send his angels of death to glorify the dead and build a monment in thier name.

gerran was sleeping but then he was awaken suddenly by a wraith
with a great sword in its hand . it moved toward gerran plunging his sword into gerrans chest . gerran expected death but no. he felt the pain of death . the pain of his heart bieng riped to shreads but he wont die. the wraith then spoke with a voice of greatness . the voice speak with power and an ancient sense to it.: gerran follower of cassiel your followers have killed my servants and worshipers u have stirred an anger of a god whos power has not touched erebus since the dawn of time.. i shall curse your people with a curse that never touched this plane and no god will be able to remove it since its only in my own domain... i shall grant u a chance of time to gain my forgivness if you do not act fast my curse shall fall on you and all of ur followers and you shall beg for death to ease ur suffering..

gerrans wounds heal after the wraith dissapear.

p.s this is full of errors i know i would be really gratefull if someoen can proof read it

Spoiler :

basically you are tasked with doing an act out of your mind that has to please me the god of death. the choice of action is all yours. BUT if u choose to ignore it . u shall be cursed with a plauge that no god can interfere with . it lies in the domain of the death sphere and this is the 1st time for this type of magic to enter erebus by the hands of arwan. nercromacy is a corrupted form of death magic.

Proof-read:

Arawn, God of Death

The great God was watching over the legion of spirits entering through Gyra's portal. The God was watching over every dead soul, thinking about the histories of every one of them.

He was reminded of the people of the Tower, his followers. He decided to bless them and help them as he walked to his view of Erebus in his throne room. He was shocked to learn that the areas around the Tower were pillaged, corpses of his followers covering the ground.

Something strange happened to the God. A weird emotion, a thought... Appeared... Sadness. This emotion was great - He had heard of what happened to Danalin, but Danalin was a weak God. Arawn was then filled with an emotion he had never felt before... Rage, anger.

The emotion sprouted in his heart .

His anger was great and he called the souls of his dead followers to him. He inquired of them who did this to them, and they said one thing: "The Grigori."
Arawn's anger was great, and he used his magic at that moment to send his Angels of Death to glorify the dead and build a monment in their name on the surface of Erebus.

Gerran was sleeping, but was awaken suddenly by a Wraith with a great sword in its bony hand. It moved towards Gerran, suddenly plunging its sword into Gerrans chest. Gerran studdered, expecting death, but no. He felt the pain of Death, the pain of his heart being ripped to shreads, but he did not die. The Wraith then spoke with a powerful voice. The voice rang with power and an ancient sense to it:
"Gerran, Follower of Cassiel, your minions have killed my servants and worshippers, and you have stirred an anger of a God whose power has not touched Erebus since time immortal... I shall curse your people with a gruesome spell that never before touched this plane and that no God or Man will be able to remove, since it is only of my own domain - Death!
"I shall grant you a chance to gain my forgiveness, but if you do not act fast, my curse shall fall on you and all of your followers, and you shall beg for Death to ease your suffering!"

Gerran was left staring into the wall as the wound, where the blade of the Wraith had been, slowly closed, and his skin was restored. Still, an icy grip stayed with him for the rest of the night...

Spoiler :

Basically, you are tasked with doing an act out of your mind that has to please me, the God of Death. The choice of action is all yours. But if you choose to ignore it, you shall be cursed with a plague that no God can interfere with. It lies in the domain of the death sphere, and this is the first time for this type of magic to enter Erebus by the hands of Arawn. Necromacy is a corrupted form of Death Magic, unlike this new form that Arawn controls.

 

[ryansee]

thank u very much

 

[Babale]

Not to be the proverbial Pooper of Parties, but where is Verdian?

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Why not ask him?

 

[Vandal Warlord]

Not to be the proverbial Pooper of Parties, but where is Verdian?

SMART A$$ ALERT!!!
- I believe he is in Japan.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Story's been updated.

As far as Mammon's concerned...

Well, I have to admit, Finnegan proved himself beyond my claim. If he wants to be beyond my reach, however, I suggest one, and only one, of the Gods claim him as Their Champion. No other God can/should be able to touch a Champion directly. Doing so, however, should mean that only the Champion's own god can buff it, and all other buffs are removed.

It's not clear what happened with Opar, my Great Merchant. If he merely didn't have Finnegan accompany him and sent him to the capital, there's no crime in that, so long as Opar gets there safely. If he sacrificed the unit for knowledge (get a tech), I claim right to nullify that tech's bonuses until the offense of My agent is made up. If he simply disbanded him, I have a penalty to that. I'm thinking Opar goes into the desert, meets with the Dragon-Barbarians, and supplies them in exchange for mercenaries.

Nice clever touch about asking markets be turned into Temples of Kilimorph. Creative, that. Of course, now that he's done that, he will not be allowed to build any more markets, and thus won't be able to turn any more of them into Temples of Kilimorph. So he'll get his immediate gain of safety... at a long-term cost. Short sighted pursuit of money indeed. I'm proud of him.


Also, the assassination has, by this point, occurred. I believe I need to right that up, but part of my intervention will be releasing Comillo from Held and promoting him to Assassin. I need a reminder, though: what was the final consensus about effects and changes to the Hippus?


Current Intervention Intentions:
-Write the Assassination plot. Free Comillo, promote him to Assassin. (This may best be done by gifting poisons, giving the gold needed, promoting him, and then removing poisons.)
-A retaliation for Opar, if needed.
-A warning about Markets. If he builds another to be turned into a ToK, he will pay in gold and commerce.


And, I believe I mentioned this, but I don't remember any feedback...

-Making a True Grigori civ on a to-be-created isle across the sea. Cassiel, I'm thinking a small but rich continent with three cities and plenty of resources, and among other techs include ocean-sailing line. A tech leader, to be sure, though a change so that Cassiel won't trade techs would be good. Past the creation of it, I think one Adventurer hunter (with subdue animals) could/should be gifted, preferably to the Gerranite South, so that the Grigori too start to explore the continent and meet the neighbors, so to speak.

I want a Grigori civ in general, to also serve as a tool for other gods to act with/effect. I see a significant initial relationship bonus, the more godly the Gerranites get, the bigger a penalty, as they grow farther and farther apart.