Heroes

[Thunderbrd]

Limiting the amount of GGs that can be put in a city... whew that would definitely bring about some shifts in strategy!!! Probably not a bad idea but I do say that rather reluctantly. Still, I'd be able to overcome any irritations with it with some other now developed systems in the combat mod and would love the overall effect of forcing you to really plan multiple combat production cities.

Maybe the limit itself should be a value that can be manipulated by various wonders and buildings and perhaps would grow naturally with the culture level in the city. (Finally linking cultural expansion to military strength.)

 

[strategyonly]

Personally I don't really like this idea. Either it has no real effect (it's still OP to stack large numbers of instructors) or else there is some (inobvious to me at least) decision criteria when you should stop piling more instructors in. If the former is true we don't achieve anything. If the latter is true we have to come up with good criteria for the AI to use or we'll just be disadvantaging it further.

Personally I think there should just be a limit on the effectiveness of stacked instructors (represented by a cap). After all, in real life having 10 tutors in a subject isn't likely to be significantly beneficial over having 9 (assuming they are basically of the same quality, so at best giving slightly different perspectives and areas of expertise)

@LumenAngel and Nimek I like your ideas but they need a bit more thought. Assuming the national wonder "Military Tradition" is not available until warfare tech what do you do with the GG's you get before this?

My suggestion:-

1) Combat against animals has diminishing returns when it comes to generating a GG. Once you have your first GG animal points only count half and when you have your second they don't count at all.

2) Similarly for barbarian combat but the reduction starts at your fifth GG and stops at your 10th.

3) You can only settle 2 GGs as instructors in a city without "Military Tradition" National wonder. You can settle 2 as instructors per level of "Military Tradition". We need a better name than level. Except the last where you can settle as many as you like.
This way you can still specialise your cities but your general war prepairedness is good too. Maybe other military National and Great Wonders could require these?

4) Military Doctrines.

Inspirated by DH idea of Tales of animals i post my idea:

Tale of <hero name>
- auto build in every city when hero will die in battle
- +1 with oral tradition
- +1 with tablets
- +1 with books
- +1 with some digital resource that have the same role as book
- + 1 xp in the same era that hero died
- + some morale bonus in the same era (active when we have morale)

Think about Leonidas and 300. They died but the legend about their courage live even today (culture).
Think what the greek wariors felt when they heard about their hero courage. They become better fighters thanks to that (xp and morale points)

Well, their story was relatively unknown until Frank Miller made a comic book about them and they weren't widely known until the movie. How many people today know about Xenophon of Athens? And he was not only a soldier, but also a writer and philosopher, who is taught about in Greek History 101.

???. Sorry but you dont have right. In every school in europe on history lessons you will hear about leonidas and the 300 hundred. In our culture we have also a lot of movies and boks abou their story. So we schould add also

+ 1 with hit movies



I dont. But i know Pitagoras, socrates, platon, euqlides to name only a few of them. But you don catch the point of this clue.
Do you know Alexander the Great. Hammurabi. Julius Cezar.

Barbarian GG is an option.
I think that if you use it, you know you will have (you and AI) more GG.
If you play without greast Commander options (because AI dont use well), yes, you will have a certain number of GMI. But the player knows this and wants them early game.

Another idea would be GG can research Military tech (all *** warfare tech, all tech allowing only military units and building). With this, you will reduce number of GMI too.

Limiting the amount of GGs that can be put in a city... whew that would definitely bring about some shifts in strategy!!! Probably not a bad idea but I do say that rather reluctantly. Still, I'd be able to overcome any irritations with it with some other now developed systems in the combat mod and would love the overall effect of forcing you to really plan multiple combat production cities.

Maybe the limit itself should be a value that can be manipulated by various wonders and buildings and perhaps would grow naturally with the culture level in the city. (Finally linking cultural expansion to military strength.)

Dang i finally get alot of ideas/suggestions and my PC went POOF, having a heck of a time for some reason getting everything to work properly again on the newer PC, so if anyone in the modders section wants to take over this, please do so, just let me know in a PM or something, thx, looks like it will still be awhile before i can get everything going again, infact, i had a 4 month project and other go down the hatch when i lost my harddrive. Now i cant even get PakBuild to work correctly

 

[Thunderbrd]

eek... that sounds like nothing pleasant there SO! I'm sure we've all lost more than we realize with that 4 month project down the hatch!

 

[ls612]

eek... that sounds like nothing pleasant there SO! I'm sure we've all lost more than we realize with that 4 month project down the hatch!

Ouch! I'm overloaded with RL and modding ATM, so I'm not going to be adding this to my responsibilities anytime soon.

 

[Nimek]

Great men The_J posted new modmod for my request. It adds two things

1 add era exact era requirements for heros
2 heroes will die after x turn after end of that era (recommend 5 tuns)

It will prevent great farmer exploit to build obsolete heroes and add some game balance.

Link to mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13096

Please someone to implement it

 

[strategyonly]

Great men The_J posted new modmod for my request. It adds two things

1 add era exact era requirements for heros
2 heroes will die after x turn after end of that era (recommend 5 tuns)

It will prevent great farmer exploit to build obsolete heroes and add some game balance.

Link to mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13096

Please someone to implement it

I cant do it, you didnt ask him to do it in BUG/WoC style . . .

 

[LumenAngel]

So, better put an "can only build at X era or before" to some culture, or you will be able to build a totally useless wonder

And I think it's the worst solution for this problem, I would prefer a "heroes will start with heroic equipment, making them strong for the actual era", so even Leonidas will be useful in Modern Era (and so, you will still use him and not build an achievment/put a instructor)

 

[TowerWizard]

Whats the point of them expiring, if they can just join a city as a super specialist?

 

[Nimek]

They are very powerful. We want to add this to make some game balance.

Even in heroes native mod they die after 25 turns so entire era + 5 turns is long enought to use them.
It will also add some realism. Leonidas in modern era sounds like tale not real world. Noone lives forever.

 

[TowerWizard]

@Nimek:

I meant that it don't really make them go away, if you can stick them as a Super Specialist in a city were they will stay forever. It kind of defeats the purpose of them being temporary. I really like the idea of them being era specific, but then please remove their abilities to be made to work as Super Specialists. (Just to be clear, I do NOT mean remove their ability to build the Achievements buildings, just their ability to add a settled great people of choice to the city.) In most cases this will be either a Great Prophet (+5 gold, +2 hammers) or a Military Advisor (+2 gold, +2 XP), the first of which adds a huge amount of gold over time, and the last of which can contribute to adding 50+ XP to newly recruited units in the late game, which is ridiculous. It will help the game balance to make this ability go away I think, as well as make them indeed temporary (except for the achievements thing). Two birds with one stone!

Noone lives forever.

Except all the civilization leaders.

 

[Nimek]

Except all the civilization leaders.

That will be changed as soon as thunder will develop his next idea. Now he has a lot of work on Combat Mod

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Nimek:

I meant that it don't really make them go away, if you can stick them as a Super Specialist in a city were they will stay forever. It kind of defeats the purpose of them being temporary. I really like the idea of them being era specific, but then please remove their abilities to be made to work as Super Specialists. (Just to be clear, I do NOT mean remove their ability to build the Achievements buildings, just their ability to add a settled great people of choice to the city.) In most cases this will be either a Great Prophet (+5 gold, +2 hammers) or a Military Advisor (+2 gold, +2 XP), the first of which adds a huge amount of gold over time, and the last of which can contribute to adding 50+ XP to newly recruited units in the late game, which is ridiculous. It will help the game balance to make this ability go away I think, as well as make them indeed temporary (except for the achievements thing). Two birds with one stone!

Are you saying there should be no super specialists in the game? Because your arguement against heroes could be used against every other GP that you settle also.

Edit I'll look at merging the mod as an option or mod mod. Personally I don't like it since the way I play I get to build the hero at the end of the era and have him/her die on the way to the front lines.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Specialists like that are more of a heritage, special tradition etc... rather than actually living forever.

I'm on the fence with this myself though and would like it as an option as DH suggests. In some games I might want it ON and in others OFF and it'll probably depend on some other mod plans to come (whether they are in effect or not.)

 

[Nimek]

So just add option

Realistic heroes

I have ask TheJ to rebuild his mod component in bug/woc style. He starting to do it but i think he ma need some help.

Era requirement for heroes should be full merged i think.this will remove great farmer exploit to build obsolete heroes.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So just add option

Realistic heroes

I have ask TheJ to rebuild his mod component in bug/woc style. He starting to do it but i think he ma need some help.

Era requirement for heroes should be full merged i think.this will remove great farmer exploit to build obsolete heroes.

No need to get The_J to do anything. It is often trivial to convert however I have not looked at it yet, just downloaded it and added it to my list.

 

[ls612]

Are you saying there should be no super specialists in the game? Because your arguement against heroes could be used against every other GP that you settle also.

Edit I'll look at merging the mod as an option or mod mod. Personally I don't like it since the way I play I get to build the hero at the end of the era and have him/her die on the way to the front lines.

I'm fine with this as an option, personally I like the way Heroes work right now in terms of gameplay. Question though (for Koshling), will the AI understand how to use Heroes which are going to die at some point?

 

[strategyonly]

I'm fine with this as an option, personally I like the way Heroes work right now in terms of gameplay. Question though (for Koshling), will the AI understand how to use Heroes which are going to die at some point?

I must agree, there might be some needed tweaks here and there and some buildings taht need to be added etc, but as far as dying, i am up in the air about this?? Maybe instead of dying just make him into the next Era in line person available and have him/her upgrade to that Hero? Would be then just like a normal unit, upgrading etc. . . But only in the Hero classes . . .

 

[Thunderbrd]

Perhaps in 'death' they could be made to auto join the current Capital? Or the city they were built from? They've gone home to retire...

 

[strategyonly]

Perhaps in 'death' they could be made to auto join the current Capital? Or the city they were built from? They've gone home to retire...

Well in a ways you can already do that, thats why i leave it to the player for options to be IE: Military Instructor, Great Prophet etc and even as you said Join City in some cases already. . .

 

[Thunderbrd]

I understand you already can... I was just saying that rather than have the unit perish, it should automatically be made to join its home city from wherever it is when its 'time has run out'. Then again, is it necessary? At a point, the unit has been strength obsoleted anyhow and there's little further use for it but to take it back to a city.

Though I must admit it wouldn't bother me either way because I use them for the city as soon as I get them.