Heroes

[AIAndy]

You are the best civ 4 mod team ever.

The game that i have 40 military instructors is my first in C2C. I want only have stuff as balanced as possible so this was my proposal how to do it.

The main balance problem in your case is that you got too many heroes (which might be the AI not focusing on them enough or some other reason). But if mass military instructors is still too strong after that balance point is improved, it could get diminishing return (although because of the XP to level relationship there is already a kind of diminishing return) or military instructors could slightly increase hammer cost of units.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I regularly wind up with obscene numbers of GMIs in my military city as well. Last game (v25, Emperor, Pangaea, Small), my new-build units were up to 200+ XP by the time I hit Industrial, with only maybe 40 of that from settling Heroes. Admittedly, I pretty much had the game won by the time I hit Renaissance. I do play with Assimilation on, mostly because I like using UUs and it gives more of a feel of a large multicultural empire, but by the time I manage to build more than maybe 2 or 3 cultures' Heroes, the game is usually already decided.

Part of that may be because I play small maps, on account of my laptop being about 5 years old and none too great to begin with. On larger maps, I imagine it's more likely that an AI civilization will manage to snowball on its own continent and pose a credible mid/late-game threat. A larger map would also make having just one city responsible for military production less viable.

Spartacus is massively more exploitable for GMIs than Heroes/Great Farmers, if you're lucky enough to get him. Getting a Gladiator every 3-4 turns isn't difficult if you're careful and patient. I really, really think Gladiators need the GMI settlement removed or reworked. Perhaps have them build a special building or buildings instead of directly settling, thus putting a limit on the boost they can provide to any given city?

As for GMIs, I'm not really a fan of having them cut military production directly. It just seems a bit too counter-intuitive, even if it does allow for a good quality versus quantity effect. I can't really think of any good solutions at the moment that don't feel artificial though.

 

[Thunderbrd]

or military instructors could slightly increase hammer cost of units.

You know? That's an outstanding idea I think. Quality training increases training time and lends to a good balance concept.

 

[Koshling]

You know? That's an outstanding idea I think. Quality training increases training time and lends to a good balance concept.

Personally I don't really like this idea. Either it has no real effect (it's still OP to stack large numbers of instructors) or else there is some (inobvious to me at least) decision criteria when you should stop piling more instructors in. If the former is true we don't achieve anything. If the latter is true we have to come up with good criteria for the AI to use or we'll just be disadvantaging it further.

Personally I think there should just be a limit on the effectiveness of stacked instructors (represented by a cap). After all, in real life having 10 tutors in a subject isn't likely to be significantly beneficial over having 9 (assuming they are basically of the same quality, so at best giving slightly different perspectives and areas of expertise)

 

[strategyonly]

Personally I think there should just be a limit on the effectiveness of stacked instructors (represented by a cap). After all, in real life having 10 tutors in a subject isn't likely to be significantly beneficial over having 9 (assuming they are basically of the same quality, so at best giving slightly different perspectives and areas of expertise)

I never even thought about that, that sounds very reasonable.

 

[LumenAngel]

Spartacus is massively more exploitable for GMIs than Heroes/Great Farmers, if you're lucky enough to get him. Getting a Gladiator every 3-4 turns isn't difficult if you're careful and patient. I really, really think Gladiators need the GMI settlement removed or reworked. Perhaps have them build a special building or buildings instead of directly settling, thus putting a limit on the boost they can provide to any given city?

Totally agrre with the Spartacus problem. Have them able to build Gladiator school instead of GMI would be fine.

About heroes, in v25, no "modern" promotion? Like a chance to intercept and a bonus vs helico (strategist can give a bonus against hunter and animals instead), or a promotion giving bonus against wheeled and track units?

 

[Faustmouse]

Personally I think there should just be a limit on the effectiveness of stacked instructors (represented by a cap). After all, in real life having 10 tutors in a subject isn't likely to be significantly beneficial over having 9 (assuming they are basically of the same quality, so at best giving slightly different perspectives and areas of expertise)

But can you make the number of stacking GMI chooseable in the BUG Options?

 

[strategyonly]

Totally agree with the Spartacus problem. Have them able to build Gladiator school instead of GMI would be fine.

Dang you guys are good at finding things, i have known about this for quite a few months, and enjoyed this part, i just didnt want anyone else to find out, BUT here it is now out in the open, darn. That was how i made about five cities with six MI in each for military unit promotions, again DARN

 

[LumenAngel]

Dang you guys are good at finding things, i have known about this for quite a few months, and enjoyed this part, i just didnt want anyone else to find out, BUT here it is now out in the open, darn. That was how i made about five cities with six MI in each for military unit promotions, again DARN

I think, it was the FIRST big thing i find in balance (in v20, the first time I played C2C).
That and the Leonidas - 300 glitch (can be upgraded, can be load in Caravel)...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have had over 40 military instructors also. My suggestion is to turn off military only heroes if the game option Great Commanders is off. That will reduce the number of heroes for those of us who don't play "war".

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Totally agrre with the Spartacus problem. Have them able to build Gladiator school instead of GMI would be fine.

I'd rather have them create a unique building of some sort rather than one that's buildable normally, but yeah, something along those lines.

Another thing to consider is something along the lines of the Doctrines or Traditions from Realism Invinctus (I think). Have Military Heroes unable to settle as GMIs, but give them the ability to create another building or wonder that gives a more manageable boost to military units. Obsoletion also becomes a possibility, then.

Another somewhat more flavorful way to limit the number of usable GMIs per city could be to instead have them create a chain of buildings, similar to FfH's Altar of the Luonnatar, that then provide the experience instead. Although, this wouldn't be as customizable by the player as a straightforward limit on the number of settled GMIs in a city.

 

[intlidave]

A little something form my suggestion list:
Erwin Rommel (Hero unit)
One of the two heroes who use a tank as their unit model. I'm proposing a few changes that will bring him in line with normal tank units.
Suggestions: Change starting ability to Lieutenant (equivalent of Blitz), increase Movement to 4

George Patton (Hero unit)
One of the two heroes who use a tank as their unit model. I have major beef with the fact that he uses graphics for BT-7. A SOVIET light tank.
Suggestions: Change graphics to those of a US Tank, namely the Chafee http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=305660 . Increase Movement to 4.

The 300 Spartans
This unit is odd. Not only is it the only example of a hero's retinue having its own special unit, but it is upgradeable to Flailman. VERY unusual combination.
Suggestion: Remove upgrade, change name to Achilles (or some other Greek hero).

 

[LumenAngel]

Another somewhat more flavorful way to limit the number of usable GMIs per city could be to instead have them create a chain of buildings, similar to FfH's Altar of the Luonnatar, that then provide the experience instead. Although, this wouldn't be as customizable by the player as a straightforward limit on the number of settled GMIs in a city.

I love the idea. A special National Wonder like Military Tradition
Lvl1 : +1 XP for all units in all cities
Lvl2 : +1 XP for all units in all cities, +1 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities
Lvl3 : +1 XP for all units in all cities, +2 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +10% chance to have great general
Lvl4 : +2 XP for all units in all cities, +3 Culture from
barracks/Garrison in all cities, +15% chance to have great general, +10% defense in all cities
Lvl5 :+ 2 XP for all units in all cities, +4 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +20% chance to have great general, , +20% defense in all cities, heroes have chance to cheat death
Lvl6 :+2 XP for all units in all cities, +5 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +25% chance to have great general, , +30% defense in all cities, heroes have chance to cheat death, start a Golden Age

 

[Nimek]

Or we can add military doctrnes or traditions (from realism invictus) to great generals that unlocks new promotions lines to units.

This ideas (lumen mine and add era req. Heroes) should reduce the number of GMI in city.

 

[bill2505]

what about military traditions or military doctrines
from wiki about war
military operations
Blitzkrieg · Deep Battle · Maneuver warfare · Operational manoeuvre group

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@LumenAngel and Nimek I like your ideas but they need a bit more thought. Assuming the national wonder "Military Tradition" is not available until warfare tech what do you do with the GG's you get before this?

My suggestion:-

1) Combat against animals has diminishing returns when it comes to generating a GG. Once you have your first GG animal points only count half and when you have your second they don't count at all.

2) Similarly for barbarian combat but the reduction starts at your fifth GG and stops at your 10th.

3) You can only settle 2 GGs as instructors in a city without "Military Tradition" National wonder. You can settle 2 as instructors per level of "Military Tradition". We need a better name than level. Except the last where you can settle as many as you like.

Lvl1 : +1 XP for all units in all cities
Lvl2 : +1 XP for all units in all cities, +1 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities
Lvl3 : +1 XP for all units in all cities, +2 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +10% chance to have great general
Lvl4 : +2 XP for all units in all cities, +3 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +15% chance to have great general, +10% defense in all cities
Lvl5 :+ 2 XP for all units in all cities, +4 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +20% chance to have great general, , +20% defense in all cities, heroes have chance to cheat death
Lvl6 :+2 XP for all units in all cities, +5 Culture from barracks/Garrison in all cities, +25% chance to have great general, , +30% defense in all cities, heroes have chance to cheat death, start a Golden Age

This way you can still specialise your cities but your general war prepairedness is good too. Maybe other military National and Great Wonders could require these?

4) Military Doctrines.

 

[Nimek]

Inspirated by DH idea of Tales of animals i post my idea:

Tale of <hero name>
- auto build in every city when hero will die in battle
- +1 with oral tradition
- +1 with tablets
- +1 with books
- +1 with some digital resource that have the same role as book
- + 1 xp in the same era that hero died
- + some morale bonus in the same era (active when we have morale)

Think about Leonidas and 300. They died but the legend about their courage live even today (culture).
Think what the greek wariors felt when they heard about their hero courage. They become better fighters thanks to that (xp and morale points)

 

[intlidave]

Inspirated by DH idea of Tales of animals i post my idea:

Tale of <hero name>
- auto build in every city when hero will die in battle
- +1 with oral tradition
- +1 with tablets
- +1 with books
- +1 with some digital resource that have the same role as book
- + 1 xp in the same era that hero died
- + some morale bonus in the same era (active when we have morale)

Think about Leonidas and 300. They died but the legend about their courage live even today (culture).
Think what the greek wariors felt when they heard about their hero courage. They become better fighters thanks to that (xp and morale points)

Well, their story was relatively unknown until Frank Miller made a comic book about them and they weren't widely known until the movie. How many people today know about Xenophon of Athens? And he was not only a soldier, but also a writer and philosopher, who is taught about in Greek History 101.

 

[Nimek]

Well, their story was relatively unknown until Frank Miller made a comic book about them

???. Sorry but you dont have right. In every school in europe on history lessons you will hear about leonidas and the 300 hundred. In our culture we have also a lot of movies and boks abou their story. So we schould add also

+ 1 with hit movies

How many people today know about Xenophon of Athens?

I dont. But i know Pitagoras, socrates, platon, euqlides to name only a few of them. But you don catch the point of this clue.
Do you know Alexander the Great. Hammurabi. Julius Cezar.

 

[LumenAngel]

1) Combat against animals has diminishing returns when it comes to generating a GG. Once you have your first GG animal points only count half and when you have your second they don't count at all.

2) Similarly for barbarian combat but the reduction starts at your fifth GG and stops at your 10th.

Barbarian GG is an option.
I think that if you use it, you know you will have (you and AI) more GG.
If you play without greast Commander options (because AI dont use well), yes, you will have a certain number of GMI. But the player knows this and wants them early game.

Another idea would be GG can research Military tech (all *** warfare tech, all tech allowing only military units and building). With this, you will reduce number of GMI too.