Highest leader ratings without UU/UBs

[ahcos]

You can do alot of things if the map is generous or forgiving. I'm assuming Mylene and Iranon are talking about close or tough games. There is little use for more overall beakers from a settled GS, if that means you don't get the advantage you need to break out of a tricky situation.

 

[civvver]

I don't understand why this would be the case. Nothing in the numbers I am checking support this.


About philosophical, I share your opinion to a certain degree.
When I play phi, I find that the first GSci can accually arrive to early. I don't really know what to do with him. (bulb math?!).
And also since they come so soon, I sometime get a barrage of Gpersons, and then I get almost none for the rest of the game.

I attribute this to lack of attention though, one can controll the GPP generation alot more, than I usually do.
And if you are skilled with the timings, you can do absolute magical things with philosophical.

On epic/marathon it takes forever to research some key, bulbable, techs like education and metal casting. Settling a scientist nets 6 beakers? and settling a great engineer nets 2 hammers and 4 beakers? Can't remember exactly, but either way a bulb is something like 200 times that.

Many are saying oh philosophy lets me settle some great people and build an academy early, but those returns are pretty meager early game. By the time it's significant I generally have the great scientist available.

Let's just do a general comparison, obviously no math here, but just from a common sense standpoint comparing a possible advantage philosophical might get you-

you can have a free academy and one settled great scientist in your science city at 500bc

compare that to say:

half price granaries and harbors and cheaper workers
half price forges and tons of wonder failgold
half price courthouses, lighthouses and civic costs
free, fast border pops and half price libraries

I just don't really see how philosophical outshines any of those advantages.

 

[Archbob]

GS I think is 9 beakers but you also have more turns on Marathon to garner those returns from. CRE is still the best trait on diety.

 

[goldys_lackey]

Its probably a rare game where you have the chance to bulb a monopoly tech early game against Deity AI, so settling is probably the better option (I play monarch). At lower levels, you can really abuse tech trading in the early game so bulbing is often the better beaker multiplier.

This may also explain why PHI is more powerful at higher levels: the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generations of great scientists come sooner and by then you may finally be able to bulb a monopoly tech.

 

[ben-jammin]

Its probably a rare game where you have the chance to bulb a monopoly tech early game against Deity AI, so settling is probably the better option (I play monarch). At lower levels, you can really abuse tech trading in the early game so bulbing is often the better beaker multiplier.

This may also explain why PHI is more powerful at higher levels: the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generations of great scientists come sooner and by then you may finally be able to bulb a monopoly tech.

On immortal and deity tech trading is far more effective than on lower levels where AIs would rarely have anything useful before you can research it yourself. And it doesnt matter whether its a monopoly tech or not so long as there are AIs with things to trade that you want that don't already have it.

 

[cseanny]

On immortal and deity tech trading is far more effective than on lower levels where AIs would rarely have anything useful before you can research it yourself. And it doesnt matter whether its a monopoly tech or not so long as there are AIs with things to trade that you want that don't already have it.

Agreed. You actually tech faster on Immortal/Deity because the AI researches everything you need. I.E., on Monarch you would have to research Monarchy and Alpha yourself, along with some of the prereq's. On Immortal/Deity all you do is research Asthetics, 2 turns into alpha, Literature and then you're able to back trade for literally everything, to include MC. Rinse and repeat as your bulbing your way towards Liberalism.

Edit:

representation changes balance between bulbs and settled specs.

Leverage is my main concern and imo bulbing will always get you to the point where you can do just that. Liberalsim in the 1AD-450AD range allows for a very quick Nationalism/Taj and subsequent, early and massive rifle/spy war which will allow you to quickly bring your empire to around 20 cities if land allows it. You can then leverage that empire to create unthinkable amounts of research/production/and gold.

 

[vranasm]

representation changes balance between bulbs and settled specs.

 

[Keilah]

can you gift cities to your expansive ally, get him to whip a granary, then have him give it to your creative ally, who pops borders/whips a library, and then gives it back to you?

 

[stimpyhoek]

Only problem I ever encounter is transition to factories and coal plants. I kinda hate watching my cities shrink if I beeline it. Alternative tech paths r way aways. So for a leader I would pick anyone with exp. Shutting down tech after factories and spam till u win usually works.

 

[krikav]

On epic/marathon it takes forever to research some key, bulbable, techs like education and metal casting. Settling a scientist nets 6 beakers? and settling a great engineer nets 2 hammers and 4 beakers? Can't remember exactly, but either way a bulb is something like 200 times that.

My point is that there should not be any differance according to speed.
On marathon, techs cost 3 times as many beakers.
Bulbs give 3 times as much.
You get 3 times as many turns.

Everything should be equal!

 

[MarigoldRan]

Units only cost twice as many hammers.

This has odd early-game implications.

It also means lots of medieval wars.

 

[cseanny]

Another reason why I avoid Marathon. Honestly, I thinks its abusive and easily 1 or 1.5 levels easier than whatever settings you're actually playing.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

can you gift cities to your expansive ally, get him to whip a granary, then have him give it to your creative ally, who pops borders/whips a library, and then gives it back to you?

In multi player? I doubt that the lib survives, since it's a culture building. Rax might.

 

[krikav]

Units only cost twice as many hammers.
This has odd early-game implications.
It also means lots of medieval wars.

1) What you say it true.

2) But if this was ment as a reply to me, it would be usefull for you to consider the first thing civvver said, that sparked my discussion with him.

- This is what he said:
"Getting an academy early is a fair point but I generally just wait for the academy as a bulb on epic/marathon is a much bigger return early."

3) I am questioning the idea that bulbs on epic/marathon would have a much bigger return early.
Why do I question this?
Because I see no reason why it should matter, as the relations for techs/bulbs/turns are all proportional when one compares the speeds normal and marathon.

 

[Mylene]

Oh i can see why bulbs matter a lot early on Marathon, it's all about gaining early advantages which last for a long time...while on normal you might shoot yourself in the foot and find out your gain just ran out

 

[MarigoldRan]

1) What you say it true.

2) But if this was ment as a reply to me, it would be usefull for you to consider the first thing civvver said, that sparked my discussion with him.

- This is what he said:
"Getting an academy early is a fair point but I generally just wait for the academy as a bulb on epic/marathon is a much bigger return early."

3) I am questioning the idea that bulbs on epic/marathon would have a much bigger return early.
Why do I question this?
Because I see no reason why it should matter, as the relations for techs/bulbs/turns are all proportional when one compares the speeds normal and marathon.

The initial bulb is much less valuable at Marathon/Huge than standard.

The normal GS bulb is Mathematics, to do a rush, but what's the point at Marathon/Huge with standard number of civs? You can get the land just as easily by building settlers, and an early rush on average maps will cripple your economy.

On the other hand, I don't like getting Academies either unless I can get the Great Library and/or the Pyramids. The reason is because my research slider is on the low end most of the time, thanks to the large amounts of land to settle, which you should settle, so an Academy is pretty worthless too.

At the same time, I feel like settling the GP is a waste. Most of the time you know by the time the late-classical era end whether you have a good shot at winning the game or not, and with only +6 beakers, a settled GP isn't all that great. Over the course of a thousand turns, it adds up, but if that +6 beakers makes a big difference, it means you're screwed already because you couldn't get the necessary number of cities to boost your research.

So... I tend to save the early GP for:

1. Bulb Philosophy. This is a worthwhile trade-bait tech to get. Also useful for Nationalism, which I'm beginning to like more than Liberalism. Getting the Taj and being able to draft from your many cities is better than getting a free tech. And Education for liberalism is pretty worthless if your research slider is 30% most of the time due to medieval wars and maintenance.

2. Start a Golden Age.

However, if you can get an early GREAT MERCHANT that's a different matter. With the amount of cities you're expected to get at Huge Maps, bulbing Currency is very worthwhile. So... if you're PHIL, the GLH is a very nice Wonder. But otherwise you're not going to get it in time.

In terms of Great People, Marathon/Huge favors Great Merchants over Great Scientists.

So... in summary you're both wrong!

On Marathon/Huge you have to get used to the fact that IF THINGS WENT WELL, your research slider will be low. (I.e. Things went well, THUS you have more cities. And thus, you have more maintenance, and less research).

 

[MarigoldRan]

Oh i can see why bulbs matter a lot early on Marathon, it's all about gaining early advantages which last for a long time...while on normal you might shoot yourself in the foot and find out your gain just ran out

Yes and no.

You want early advantages in land and cities.

Early advantages in tech tends to dissipate over time, unless you can leverage it quickly into military conquest.

The exceptions are the economic techs like Alphabet, Currency, and CoL, because these techs let you EXPAND to more cities and land.

 

[jihe]

My point is that there should not be any differance according to speed.
On marathon, techs cost 3 times as many beakers.
Bulbs give 3 times as much.
You get 3 times as many turns.

Everything should be equal!

Except your units move at the same speed. So once you get to key military tech (engineering bulb?) you have 3 times longer to take over the world.

 

[krikav]

Except your units move at the same speed. So once you get to key military tech (engineering bulb?) you have 3 times longer to take over the world.

Yes, the extra value of military techs might be what civvver was hinting at.
Theology bulb might very well be interesting I guess.

 

[krikav]

Wall of text

So... in summary you're both wrong!

What am I wrong about?