Hint at 3rd expansion from Firaxis??

I’m all for something like this, if done right. You could even have guilds that form based on your other activities or districts: swordsmiths (for military), alchemists (for science), thieves, assassins, masons, jewelers, merchants...

I’d want more options than just corporations for the modern era though... cartels and mafias come to mind.

Perhaps even a special district for guildhalls, corporate hqs that can be customized based on your emphasis.

Just as long as the corporations are more fun than Civ4’s. No more Sid’s Sushi.

I think you would name the corporations like a religion. Cartels and mafias are interesting, but the latter isn't legally sanctioned. If you mean something like an oil cartel, then there might be room for collusion. I'm not sure how to make it work, though.

I didn't really like how Civ IV did corporations, but I think you can bring them back.
 
I was thinking black markets, syndicates, mafias and cartels (and thieves guilds) could be the dark side of corporations, sort of how espionage is like the dark side of diplomacy.

I can imagine foreign interests infiltrating a Civ and siphoning off cash through corruption.

If multiple factions infiltrated a city, they could temporarily shut down production through a gang war. Bratva vs. Yakuza, yikes!

Give players a reason to build police stations and courthouses in the modern era.
 
The civ board game has an economic victory. It‘s pretty fast, pretty easy, pretty dull afaik. Would make sense that Anton won that way while Ed and Carl were going against each other.
 
Spoiler :

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Data from Steam DB


If you compare their performance over a similar time frame since release, you should find near identical number of players (both games having initial release cut off here, to keep the charts reasonably close in scale- if you are concerned, Civ VI had far more players on release than Civ V has ever had). This is despite the number of users that we know were choosing to play V at the same time since VI's release, a number of whom can be assumed to own both.

Since we don't have numbers pointing to the number of owners of both at the same relative time in their respective release cycles, I am unsure how you know that V outsold VI based on the evidence we have.

With that in mind, I also don't know how you can claim it has under-performed.

(Also, note that my "excuses" were simply explaining the non-gameplay reasons that VI has review issues that V did not have, which we can reasonably presume have played a role in sales).

What we can note is that R&F has seemingly failed to maintain interest at the same level G&K did, which is significant. If GS sees the same results compared to BNW, Firaxis and 2K might potential nix a full expansion (any developed content could be released as smaller DLC to wrap up this release cycle).

It was a long time ago now, but I recall a similar pattern with civ 4 when civ 5 was newly released. It wasnt until Gods & Kings that 5 overtook 4 in terms of active player base. And by the looks of it I'd say Gathering Storm will become the G&K of civ 6.
 
FXS is going to take the wrong lesson, and think that what people want, is a WWII scenario. At least, that's what my crystal ball tells me
 
I agree that there isn't going to be a THRID expansion. A third expansion though? I just might see that happening. WWII scenario I wouldn't care about at all. I would like map packs, leaders/civs, natural wonders, most of all.
 
Moderator Action: Merged 3rd expansion threads
 
I'm still very cynical about the prospects. FXS works for Take-Two's shareholders, not us the fans. It's probably also why there won't be any further mod support; it doesn't draw in new, paying customers the same way porting to mobile and consoles does
 
I believe a third expansion is nearly guarenteed unless GS is not selling as promised to the shareholders ( remember that a sell of 500 million dollars was considered a failure for the COD franchise ) . i can totally see more DLC with scenarios and maps coming in , low effort for some quick cash flow. New leaders and civs though take a lot of animation and balancing work which could result in moving away from that and start on a new version to optimize income.
 
I believe a third expansion is nearly guarenteed unless GS is not selling as promised to the shareholders ( remember that a sell of 500 million dollars was considered a failure for the COD franchise ) . i can totally see more DLC with scenarios and maps coming in , low effort for some quick cash flow. New leaders and civs though take a lot of animation and balancing work which could result in moving away from that and start on a new version to optimize income.

Eh even if they weren't happy, what do they think they can do about it? It's not like 2K has any other tentpoles to keep them afloat. Seems to me the only option involving total cessation would be bankruptcy or acquisition.

No, I get the impression that the marketing is being done right and that it is working. I don't see it substantially underperforming, if it does at all. And as long as 2K is alive they also need VI alive, even if only to stall while they fish for and develop a new idea.

So I don't think they would pull the plug immediately. Probably give Firaxis a year or two to wrap up on a reduced budget.
 
I see you were referring to the pre-Christian Armenia. You got my vote then.

But Pre-Christian Armenia, while somewhat interesting as a political "spoiler" power historically between the Seleucid, Parthian, and Roman power struggle in the days of Tigranes the great, is not it's most interesting era. It's Christian era has the pathos of a civilization in a way similar to Ethiopia during the bulk of it's recorded history. Both adopted Christianity before the rise of Constantine in the Roman Empire, and both were stalwart strongholds of Christiandom that held out constant sieges by Islamic forces for centuries. But it seems to be, on these CivVI forums, a strong tendency to want as many civ's as possible who have appearances in history as both a pagan/polytheist and a monotheist (Christian or Islamic) viewpoints, to overrepresent the old pagan/polytheist ones, even if it requires a lot of stretching, less interesting eras or leaders, or relying on much weaker historical information, and then stack all of their civ abilities and unique improvements so any conversion to a monotheist way of thinking would make any sense, because they'd lose all they're benefits (for those who still RP their civ's, at least, and don't just PLAY). In fact, the bias in a lot of media that paganism/polytheism is preferable in portrayal, and even empathy, to monotheism, is a bit disturbing. Does no one conceptualize that, even though a LOT of grief, death, suffering, and oppression has come from a large chunk of global civilization today being based on Abrahamic Monotheist ideals and principles, that, if the pagans and polytheists had come out ahead in the "culture war," the world would almost certainly be far worse for inequity, injustice, oppression, tyranny, intolerance, unnecessary bloodshed, and theocratic impunity, and science and technology would likely be several centuries behind globally today.
 
But Pre-Christian Armenia, while somewhat interesting as a political "spoiler" power historically between the Seleucid, Parthian, and Roman power struggle in the days of Tigranes the great, is not it's most interesting era. It's Christian era has the pathos of a civilization in a way similar to Ethiopia during the bulk of it's recorded history. Both adopted Christianity before the rise of Constantine in the Roman Empire, and both were stalwart strongholds of Christiandom that held out constant sieges by Islamic forces for centuries. But it seems to be, on these CivVI forums, a strong tendency to want as many civ's as possible who have appearances in history as both a pagan/polytheist and a monotheist (Christian or Islamic) viewpoints, to overrepresent the old pagan/polytheist ones, even if it requires a lot of stretching, less interesting eras or leaders, or relying on much weaker historical information, and then stack all of their civ abilities and unique improvements so any conversion to a monotheist way of thinking would make any sense, because they'd lose all they're benefits (for those who still RP their civ's, at least, and don't just PLAY). In fact, the bias in a lot of media that paganism/polytheism is preferable in portrayal, and even empathy, to monotheism, is a bit disturbing. Does no one conceptualize that, even though a LOT of grief, death, suffering, and oppression has come from a large chunk of global civilization today being based on Abrahamic Monotheist ideals and principles, that, if the pagans and polytheists had come out ahead in the "culture war," the world would almost certainly be far worse for inequity, injustice, oppression, tyranny, intolerance, unnecessary bloodshed, and theocratic impunity, and science and technology would likely be several centuries behind globally today.

Christian underdog narrative is Moderator Action: <<SNIP>> . Christianity may be a strong unifying ideology, but it has also been a massive force of oppression and tyrrany over the centuries. Monotheism is not synonymous with empathy, and I find it incredibly unfortunate that it has snowballed to the point that people just presume that the pop fiction they happen to be raised in is somehow better than all the others.

Moderator Action: Removed inappropriate content, please find a more civil way to express yourself. And this is off topic anyway. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Religious defender narrative is honestly a dime a dozen. Probably the least interesting aspect to build a civ around, tied with "military power." Particularly with respect to Christianity when we already have Poland, Georgia, Russia, Spain, and fans are clamoring for Byzantium. And since, again, Christianity is an assembly of myths, legends, and superstitions, and monotheism itself is just derived from polytheistic pantheons, there is absolutely nothing special about it that warrants every other civ in the game being "the Christian civ."

This feels preachy. Particularly since you would rather take anything that might make a civ unique and conform it to...well really what strikes me as a very limited and underinformed comfort zone. I do not get the impression that you don't want paganism in this game because it is actually irrelevant, but because you are afraid of people encountering beliefs that aren't yours.

So I do not support this. At all. In fact I would love it if preferred religions were even more pagan in VI, if only to show the diversity and wide effect that proto-religions like the PIE pantheon had across the world. Just because a couple gods ended up winning the memetic rat race doesn't mean that they weren't once part of a larger club.
 
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Christian underdog narrative is Moderator Action: <<SNIP>> . Christianity may be a strong unifying ideology, but it has also been a massive force of oppression and tyrrany over the centuries. Monotheism is not synonymous with empathy, and I find it incredibly unfortunate that it has snowballed to the point that people just presume that the pop fiction they happen to be raised in is somehow better than all the others.

Religious defender narrative is honestly a dime a dozen. Probably the least interesting aspect to build a civ around, tied with "military power." Particularly with respect to Christianity when we already have Poland, Georgia, Russia, Spain, and fans are clamoring for Byzantium. And since, again, Christianity is an assembly of myths, legends, and superstitions, and monotheism itself is just derived from polytheistic pantheons, there is absolutely nothing special about it that warrants every other civ in the game being "the Christian civ."

This feels preachy. Particularly since you would rather take anything that might make a civ unique and conform it to...well really what strikes me as a very limited and underinformed comfort zone. I do not get the impression that you don't want paganism in this game because it is actually irrelevant, but because you are afraid of people encountering beliefs that aren't yours.

So I do not support this. At all. In fact I would love it if preferred religions were even more pagan in VI, if only to show the diversity and wide effect that proto-religions like the PIE pantheon had across the world. Just because a couple gods ended up winning the popularity contest doesn't mean that they weren't once part of a larger club.

I've not denied that Abrahamic Monotheism has, indeed, been the cause of a LOT of grief, suffering, oppression, tyranny, and death. I, in fact, said so in the very post you quoted. I was just trying to dispel a growing myth today that is often seen that the world would have been BETTER had paganism/polytheism come out ahead instead. I can't see such a better world being at all realistic - I could only see things realistically being far worse...
 
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if the pagans and polytheists had come out ahead in the "culture war," the world would almost certainly be far worse for inequity, injustice, oppression, tyranny, intolerance, unnecessary bloodshed, and theocratic impunity, and science and technology would likely be several centuries behind globally today.

I'm not aware of any factual or objective observations that could support this belief.

Speculating that things would have turned out much the same isn't unreasonable given the inability to re-run history to confirm one way or the other. Speculating that it would have been "far worse" is … highly speculative.
 
I've not denied that Abrahamic Monotheism has, indeed, been the cause of a LOT of grief, suffering, oppression, tyranny, and death. I, in fact, said so in the very post you quoted. I was just trying to dispel a growing myth today that is often seen that the world would have been BETTER had paganism/polytheism come out ahead instead. I can't see such a better world being at all realistic - I could only see things realistically being far worse...

I mean really it's hard to tell because the period in which the authoritarian behavior policing benefit of monotheism would have been effective was also when fealty to a centralized nation-state flourished. And yes the two comingled and the justification was divine right but the consequences were more directly tied to political and economic infrastructure.

Not to mention, the conformity encouraged by state religions was also a major dampening force on scientific advancement. So even if you are arguing that ethically it was an improvement over paganism, philosophically and technologically it was still worse than secularism.

So it seems to me a completely different problem, where the issue is that the game places too much emphasis on monotheism. In reality a more accurate and honest portrayal of religion would be an evolution from animistic pantheons, to monotheistic religions, to secularism. The fact that the game will not let any of your population be non-religious, instead forcing them backwards into a pantheon, is a far bigger issue than this fabricated aversion to Christianity
 
I mean really it's hard to tell because the period in which the authoritarian behavior policing benefit of monotheism would have been effective was also when fealty to a centralized nation-state flourished. And yes the two comingled and the justification was divine right but the consequences were more directly tied to political and economic infrastructure.

Not to mention, the conformity encouraged by state religions was also a major dampening force on scientific advancement. So even if you are arguing that ethically it was an improvement over paganism, philosophically and technologically it was still worse than secularism.

So it seems to me a completely different problem, where the issue is that the game places too much emphasis on monotheism. In reality a more accurate and honest portrayal of religion would be an evolution from animistic pantheons, to monotheistic religions, to secularism. The fact that the game will not let any of your population be non-religious, instead forcing them backwards into a pantheon, is a far bigger issue than this fabricated aversion to Christianity

I wasn't talking about secularism. That's a much later phenomenon than either monotheism or paganism/polytheism that actually addressed in my post, but your response seems geared to it being part of my argument. Also, you act as if pagan/polytheist religions don't also demand strict conformity obedience from their followers or back their theocrats and the rulers of nations embracing them with the premise of divine power. I remind you, the Pharoahs, and several Roman Emperors, among many others, were officially stated to BE gods - not just divinely backed by a god. And, you too seem to buy into the myth that pagan/polytheist societies are inherently more tolerant and allow more individual freedom and expression of their followers, which is not true at all.

I'm not aware of any factual or objective observations that could support this belief.

Speculating that things would have turned out much the same isn't unreasonable given the inability to re-run history to confirm one way or the other. Speculating that it would have been "far worse" is … highly speculative.

That's why I'm SPECUALTING. I'm not a prophet or a mystic prognosticator.
 
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I wasn't talking about secularism. That's a much later phenomenon than either monotheism or paganism/polytheism that actually addressed in my post, but your response seems geared to it being part of my argument. Also, you act as if pagan/polytheist religions don't also demand strict conformity obedience from their followers or back their theocrats and the rulers of nations embracing them with the premise of divine power. I remind you, the Pharoahs, and several Roman Emperors, among many others, were officially stated to BE gods - not just divinely backed by a god. And, you too seem to buy into the myth that pagan/polytheist societies are inherently more tolerant and allow more individual freedom and expression of their followers, which is not true at all.

You are misrepresenting my argument. God-king functionally isn't that different from divine right, and in that respect both are equally oppressive, which considerably dilutes your claim that monotheism is somehow better.

Furthermore, I never stated that polytheistic cultures were more tolerant so thanks for strawmanning.

Furthermore, you didn't mention secularism at all, so that's also gaslighting.

I'm not indulging in responding to this specific line of conversation anymore. There is some sort of agenda and some massive compartmentalization going on that I do not have the time or patience to deconstruct. That will remain your problem to solve.
 
Moderator Action: Let's keep on-topic please
 
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