Hippus+ Brainstorming

[Valkrionn]

well you could say the same about Doviello, Bannor, Grigori etc. then, I mean every race was intended to be the way it is in FFH that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from some added flavour...

My point wasn't that they can't benefit from added flavor... But that they don't need it.

The Hippus are one of the consistently strong civs... They are on the same tier that I attempt to bring other civs up to. They are extremely well designed for what they do.

The Doviello had major issues with the mid-late game, as well as being boring. So I worked on them, as has Ahwaric and Sephi.

The other civs worked on are the same; Both uninteresting/needing flavor, and underpowered.


Minor things (like a mounted mage) are fine, and add flavor. But IMO there is no need for anything major.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nah I disagree since you can't really say that any civ NEEDED something. it was better off buffed up a bit and flavoured that's for sure, but not really a NEED. and most of the civs that got that treatment were already arguably MORE flavourful then the hippus.

now don't get me wrong I like to play with them and I don't want every civ to be supercomplicated. but in WM, they are the only civ left being very very vanilla. the only special thing they have is better horsies, and mounted mercs ( IF they can get it ). for one, mounted mercs should be a sure thing instead of a possibility, but that's still not enough imho. expanding the mercenary theme wouldn't be something absurdly complicate, would add some much needed flavour and uniqueness to them, AND ( possibly the most important thing ) provide them with a more distinctive playstyle that is not simply "build horsies, pillage" . I definitely support anything that can get them closer to an ideal playstyle with science at 0%, relying entirely on gold for mercs. but if the only mercs you can build are mounted mercs, it gets boring pretty fast...

 

[tesb]

expanding the mercenary theme wouldn't be something absurdly complicate, would add some much needed flavour and uniqueness to them

this is easy to say, but when you go on actual coding and implementing stuff it often turns out the other way.

does anyone have ideas to make them more interesting? I'm thinking building on the "masters of mercenaries" theme would be great, Hippus should be played with an emphasis on Gold instead of Science, making them feel truly unique.

what about allowing them to buy mercenaries, that vary depending on which civs you are in contact with, with the availability and gold cost depending on your relations/open borders/trade routes with them? ( that way you could get UUs, or units with special abilities like ljolsafar archers and svartalfar recon... )

perhaps they would also be able to sell their units to other civs in exchange for gold?

that for example would require quite some python work. if you come up with a concept, (and i mean a concept not just a quick idea) that does not require heavy python work then i can do something for you since i have time the next week and my calabim project is nearing completion.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'll see if I can come up with more ideas, but there are some excellent ones in the thread already so check it out you might find something easy to code which sparks your interest

 

[DonQuigleone]

What if they were a Mongolesque Horde?

 

[tesb]

what do you mean by that? gameplay wise?

 

[Brokenbone]

Hippus are pretty powerful as is, and frankly I play them pretty much like Genghis Khan was their leader... zip in with mounted troops, ruin everything you can, maybe take a city or two, and just keep doing that. The horselord promo they get is really, really good, but it isn't very useful if you don't attack things, is it?

If considering additions for the sake of "flavor", if that flavor also results in some kind of increment in terms of power, it might need to have some level of detriment accompany it. Could even be something extreme like weakening or otherwise limiting some of their non-mounted line, like if their non-mounted tier 2 & 3 units were somehow gimped, reflecting that the cream of Hippus warriors are on horses, everyone else is not made of stuff as stern. Silly example might be that Champions wouldn't get +25% vs. melee, but they'd get +25% vs. mounted, since as the "horselords", who's going to have the best grip on countermeasures against a mounted assault? Give them pikemen graphics if you wanted, in such case. While this means meeting another stack of enemy Champions in the field would see a disadvantage if going toe to toe, Hippus tactics would dictate that a terrifying stack of horsemen, horse archers, chariots, whatever, are used to tear a stack of enemy Champions up before other of your "less elite" forces come in to try and mop up.

Anyhow, yeah, I guess all I'm saying is that if there's opportunities for gold, or extra merc. events, or other "fun and flavorful" mechanics, it might mean having to whittle away in other areas for balancing reasons. Even if not at the unit-level, there's got to be other creative ways to achieve balance, like leaders all getting some extra not entirely positive traits (maybe make a new version of the Greedy trait called Mercenary with some gold / unitclass based xp bonuses, and a variety of other malus for say, diplomacy, happiness, maybe a research penalty, a promo on your units which causes them to sometimes get the Enraged and Bounty Hunter promo at the same time, going off and murdering someone for gold, ha ha)

 

[DonQuigleone]

what do you mean by that? gameplay wise?

Well the mongols were nomadic, which is pretty difficult to do, but the next best thing is to enable them to do all their fighting on horseback, with little need for infantry. Seige weapons would still be a requirement, but perhaps the ability to build seige equipment on the fly would work, just to bombard the cities defenses. Additionally make it more difficult for them to live in a settled manner. For instance they could not cities in the typical sense, and instead recruit horsemen from the steppe. However much of this fits a more barbarian race more then the hippus. There's not really many historical analogues to draw upon with them.

However visually you could try and evoke the Mongol theme. They'd even fit into a medieval setting quite well (though a more tartar rather then Mongol look might be better).

Generally speaking the Mongols just swept over, pillaged and massacred everyone. Though to be fair other civs fit that theme as well as the hippus.

An alternative is to make them more clearly medieval Knights, or dark ages European kingdoms, for instance you could import elements of the Palatinate in Orbis. Either way what they need most is a flavourful presentation, and I think associating them with some kind of historical power(visually) would be the easiest way to do it.

 

[seizer]

One way of implementing mercenaries:

Give all hippus military units a "fund mercenary guild" ability. This could either sacrifice the unit or cost some gold, and create a mercenary guild building in the city, which would grant all units in the city the ability to hire various mercenaries (perhaps depending on what units the hippus civ has access to) for gold, of which a percentage would go to the hippus civ that founded the guild (unless it's the hippus civ that hires the mercenaries).

This could also work like a religion, giving some small amount of gold income to the hippus player, perhaps through the palace, to represent hiring out to merchants etc.

 

[Valkrionn]

Seem to have forgotten about this particular modmod, btw.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335194

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that's nice indeed and I'd like to see it merged but they need something more imho

why on earth are you so hostile to flavouring the Hippus btw? you are always adding fancy stuff left and right, but not for them? hate tasunke much?

 

[Valkrionn]

that's nice indeed and I'd like to see it merged but they need something more imho

why on earth are you so hostile to flavouring the Hippus btw? you are always adding fancy stuff left and right, but not for them? hate tasunke much?

I'm not hostile about it... I just don't think they need it. They are already strong, and too often people give boosts without giving negatives.

BrokenBone summed it up perfectly. With them as strong as they are now, any boost must come at a cost. My problem with that is it inherently makes them less friendly to new players... And they are one of few civs easily accessible, without having to learn too much.

 

[seizer]

Well, since this is a brainstorming thread, and we're talking about drawbacks...

The downside of mercenaries is generally morale and loyalty. You could add a decent chance of defeated hippus units converting to the opponent instead of being destroyed, or, perhaps, going rogue (aka barbarian).

 

[jrandrew]

Just a note, I've been playing the Austrin a lot lately, quite fun. But, they almost seem more mobile than the Hippus. Any Austrin unit with Level 2 Channeling (so a Priest of any religion or any Mage) can summon 1 Pegasus per turn, which any Austrin Melee or Arcane unit can then mount for +3 movement and the flying promotion. Or you can even go Empyrian, build a Sun Guard (whatever the infantry with Sun 2 are called), mount then on a pegasus, and then upgrade them to Rathas.

Flying 5 or 6 movement chariots with Sun 2, almost like Helios .

Anyway, the point of all of this being that the Hippus should be able to wage mounted war more effectively than the Austrin and currently the Austrin can easily build an army of 4-move Melee units with March, etc, along with flying 4-move mages for fireballing to kill city defenses.

Perhaps the Hippus should be able to summon Pegasi as well but only put their mounted units on them? Or have some sort of alternative summons? While perhaps the Austrin should/could be better at exploring, I think the Hippus should be better at outright mobile pillaging and warfare.

 

[Valkrionn]

Shouldn't that be Channeling 3? Or did Sephi change it? If so, there should really be some cost involved... What I remember from the FF version (haven't played Austrin in a while, and I've not changed them in RifE) was each Archmage could summon one Pegasus in it's lifetime... Giving you a total of 4 pegasi. FAR more limited than what you describe.

 

[tesb]

Some things i have thought of (but they are rather boring/unnecessary):

-Mobile population: When in a city every unit can cast a spell reducing the population by 1 and give 1 mounted citizen (no combat value) so you can move your population at will, for example evacuating a city that is going to get overrun, quickly settling a new city etc.

-Fresh horses: Your stables automatically give all mounted units the fresh horse promotion increasing the movement by 1, with a duration of one turn.

-Making the mercenary contract (already implemented with the equipment option) more accessible.

But honestly i agree with Valkrionn, they are strong enough and you need some vanilla civilizations.

 

[graywarden]

Some things i have thought of (but they are rather boring/unnecessary):

-Mobile population: When in a city every unit can cast a spell reducing the population by 1 and give 1 mounted citizen (no combat value) so you can move your population at will, for example evacuating a city that is going to get overrun, quickly settling a new city etc.

This would be a nice civ specific feature. maybe adding a little sherbert in the vanilla.

 

[tesb]

Well if more people want this or have better ideas i will code it, since this can be done very quickly.

 

[DonQuigleone]

I think something more aesthetic, IE flavorful is all that's necessary. A more clear role, or agenda. Every other Civ has something more to shoot for. Something shiny in the end game. Hippus don't. They need more of a purpose. Some kind of ideological underpinning. I think some kind of mechanic rewarding them for building a large expansive empire could work. Perhaps they could do something along the lines of the vassalage type relationship the Mongols had. Maybe they can extract extra gold from conquered cities per turn, but those cities are far more likely to revolt if not enough troops are stationed there, or something.

Also a more distinct visual style would help. For instance they could be a race of sentient horses(a la Gulliver's travels)! Okay that's a bit of a joke, but something more interesting with their horses would be good.

 

[Wichtel]

What if you give the Hippus a unique Resource "Mercenary Contract" which enables the one buying to build mercs. The only Problem would be to get the AI to understand what's going on so they would pay a reasonable price.