Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Buster's Uncle]

Better if the name of any of the Kuhorsehockye <-why is that distorted from what I typed? Sudanese- pharaohs is known, make it him, and assume there was a dynastic marriage w/ the old nobility, thus mixed - and that Egyptians then looked much like Egyptians now, 'cause I wasn't about to completely redraw the face.

Enjoy, Henri. I think giving young people of color the option is a very good idea.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Ah. Archaic British naughty word embedded, stupid swear filter. Kush-ite.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Blacker - it's easy once the the skin parts are cut out, until I close GIMP.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Blacker - it's easy once the the skin parts are cut out, until I close GIMP.

View attachment 653659

That is the kind of Ramses ii I would like to see in this game!

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Siigh. I'm on your side, but Black Ramesses ain't gonna happen - you've seen why throughout this thread. Kush-ite Pharoh that looks like that really could.

 

[Patine]

That is the kind of Ramses ii I would like to see in this game!

Siigh. I'm on your side, but Black Ramesses ain't gonna happen - you've seen why throughout this thread. Kush-ite Pharoh that looks like that really could.

That's because he probably wasn't, "Black," anymore than he was, "White." I have made a very good hypothesis on what racial complexion, and most Ancient Egyptians, would likely have:

I would say the more tan, swarthy colouration and straight, dark brown, almost black hair and brown eyes of most North Africans and a large number of Middle-Easterner would be most appropriate, and moreso than either, "White," or, "Black."

 

[Henri Christophe]

Siigh. I'm on your side, but Black Ramesses ain't gonna happen - you've seen why throughout this thread. Kush-ite Pharoh that looks like that really could.

Piye was a Kuhorsehockye pharaoh and was undoubtedly black, I would like to have him as leader because it will be black without controversy. But I don't think Black Ramses is impossible, we just need staffs on fireaxis who care about that

 

[Patine]

Piye was a kuhorsehockye pharaoh and was undoubtedly black, I would like to have him as leader because it will be black without controversy. But I don't think Black Ramses is impossible, we just need staffs on fireaxis who care about that

I'd rather not have Piye as the Egyptian ruler for the same reason I'd like to oust Cleopatra - I'd want to see Egyptian rulers focused on in Egypt, not foreign rulers.

And Rameses, again, was very likely not Black, but the racial demographic I stated, twice, above, and thus making him artificially Black should not be anyone at Firaxis' priority.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I'd rather not have Piye as the Egyptian ruler for the same reason I'd like to oust Cleopatra - I'd want to see Egyptian rulers focused on in Egypt, not foreign rulers.

And Rameses, again, was very likely not Black, but the racial demographic I stated, twice, above, and thus making him artificially Black should not be anyone at Firaxis' priority.

Okay, I understand your point. But in real life Cleopatra is a civ leader meanwhile Piye isn't. Because is easier to make white pharaohs to Egypt but it isn't too easy make black Pharaos

 

[Patine]

Okay, I understand your point. But in real life Cleopatra is a civ leader meanwhile Piye isn't. Because is easier to make white pharaohs to Egypt but it isn't too easy make black Pharaos

That's not my point, and that shouldn't be the priority at all, either way. I don't want to see a shoehorned Black or White Pharoah, especially foreign ones - I want to see an Egyptian Pharoah who looks like an Egyptian.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

What they should do is, a Multicultural DLC -recolor/renames, low-ish effort for a less broad audience, very ignorable for the history purists that bothers. As long as Firaxis at least breaks even on the deal, everybody's happy. Whoopie seeing Uhura on TV mattered to Whoopie in an important way, and I'm fine with throwing li'l Whoopie a bone...

 

[Buster's Uncle]

My thoughts on White Rameses from this thread organized into a better second draft, Whoopie and Nichelle sourced, maybe the actual White Jesus image I discussed - plus a George Takei postscript:
https://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=22075.0 -I got a little content out of all the work on the pic - worth the trip...

-Momma jogged my memory, and the White Jesus wall was wood panel, gray, Mr. President.

 

[Patine]

My thoughts on White Rameses from this thread organized into a better second draft, Whoopie and Nichelle sourced, maybe the actual White Jesus image I discussed - plus a George Takei postscript:
https://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=22075.0 -I got a little content out of all the work on the pic - worth the trip...

-Momma jogged my memory, and the White Jesus wall was wood panel, gray, Mr. President.

Why do Rameses or Jesus have to be (or would realistically be) White or Black. That sounds like the thinking of the outmoded Three-Race theory that @Henri Christophe harped on for so long, created by a 19th Century German naturalist who, himself, was highly racist. That theory is considered long debunked by modern anthropologists, and a much more complex and multi-faceted view of race is accepted now. This is what I said on the most likely racial appearance and traits of Rameses above (and would also be the most likely for Jesus, unless His Father's "genetics," gave Him very distinctive traits like Hindu avatars - but no credible reference ever mentions such):

I would say the more tan, swarthy colouration and straight, dark brown, almost black hair and brown eyes of most North Africans and a large number of Middle-Easterner would be most appropriate, and moreso than either, "White," or, "Black."

 

[Buster's Uncle]

No man, I get all that; I'm advancing a moral argument, not that anyone looked other than what scholarship and common sense indicates they really did. But people still want to identify.

 

[Patine]

No man, I get all that; I'm advancing a moral argument, not that anyone looked other than what scholarship and common sense indicates they really did. But people still want to identify.

What about people of Middle Eastern and North African decent who want historic figures from their homelands to (more realistically) look like them? They don't count, because African-American cultural appropriation of their history is more moral and noble?

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Have a heart - none of them are in here savaging history in service of wanting leaders they like better. YES, they should get it, of course. It would be rude to question your motives here, but they are at least a bit lacking in compassion, and this latest objection tends to read disingenuous, sorry. I don't like White Rameses to begin with - I think that's already been made clear. And Heri is hardly trolling, just taking a poor tack in asking for what he stubbornly wants, despite people dogpiling on not liking that.

 

[Patine]

Have a heart - none of them are in here savaging history in service of wanting leaders they like better. YES, they should get it, of course. It would be rude to question your motives here, but they are at least a bit lacking in compassion, and this latest objection tends to read disingenuous, sorry. I don't like White Rameses to begin with - I think that's already been made clear. And Heri is hardly trolling, just taking a poor tack in asking for what he stubbornly wants, despite people dogpiling on not liking that.

You would be surprised how many immigrants-citizens and their descendants (who you have so callously stereotyped - in a similar form of stereotyping you would probably be, rightfully, railing against if the subject of such were different) actually play these kinds of game. I've personally quite a few, and those I've known have been quite decent people, not worthy of your blanket bad portrayals. I don't think it is me who is disingenuous and heartless, here.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

I do not recognize reality in most of that, but the tactic seems familiar. Please read the thread at the link -about half is new- and if you're really determined to pursue this, I will entertain that there, for the activity's sake, for all my suspicions that I'm now in a political argument - I'm definitely done here.

 

[Patine]

I do not recognize reality in most of that, but the tactic seems familiar. Please read the thread at the link -about half is new- and if you're really determined to pursue this, I will entertain that there, for the activity's sake, for all my suspicions that I'm now in a political argument - I'm definitely done here.

I'm afraid I will not set foot in the minefield that is OT, again. But thank-you for the invitation, nonetheless.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Oh no - it's the in Civ 6 folder where it belongs. [It's 6 content, can't help if that involves politics in the end - I know the owner and it'll be okay. I shoulda posted in Recreation Commons and gotten some action from it, now that you mention it.] The sourced stuff I added there is more or less what brought me to my current opinion, and I'm curious if it will have effect on you.