History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VI

[Domen]

Some examples of 15th century horses for heavy cavalry:

This horseman is Erasmo da Narni (born in 1370, died in 1443) - one of the most famous Late Medieval mercenaries:

And here Bartolomeo Colleoni (born in 1400, died in 1475) - another Late Medieval commander of mercenary knights:

Thanks to artists of the Italian Renaissance we can see realistic sculptures of Late Medieval war horses.

 

[Domen]

BTW - on the other hand, Ancient and Medieval people were (on average) smaller than modern people.

 

[Flying Pig]

I would again be wary of assuming that even art which resembles life accurately reflects it.

 

[Domen]

I'm not saying that it reflects the average size of horses, but that such big horses were in use.

 

[sophie]

I'm not saying that it reflects the average size of horses, but that such big horses were in use.

"I'm not saying it does...but it does"

 

[Masada]

Awesome. So my drawing of a 20 foot steed is probably true to life.

 

[Phrossack]

The biggest horse ever came from my town:

As for Domen:

I still don't see how Roman cataphracts were anti-infantry. You haven't explained that. And as for the whole cataphract vs. clibanarius debate, the terminology is still a mess and clibanarii are generally considered to be cataphracts (not the Roman-specific catafractarii, just cataphracts).

I don't see how different ways of holding spears are at all relevant to this discussion.

I'd be wary of Osprey pictures like the one you posted-- they vary in quality, but I remember the one in that Kaveh Farrokh book with a Sassanid cataphract with a five-shot crossbow shotgun thing. They're not always very accurate. I noticed that the cataphract on the right wore a crested Sutton Hoo helm, for example, like he was a Greek hoplite mixed with King Rædwald.

And I've never seen any evidence to suggest that ancient or medieval heavy cavalry rode horses that were large by today's standards. Not much over 15 hands in height, usually less.

 

[Domen]

And I've never seen any evidence to suggest that ancient or medieval heavy cavalry rode horses that were large by today's standards.

So you haven't read anything about Medieval European horse breeds, apparently.

Ancient horses were smaller than Late Medieval horses, so you shouldn't put "and" between the two.

You haven't explained that.

The book is in English, you can check how the author explains it on your own.

The biggest horse ever came from my town

Or from some Medieval European town but there were no newspapers to write about that.

 

[Phrossack]

So you haven't read anything about Medieval European horse breeds, apparently.

Ancient horses were smaller than Late Medieval horses, so you shouldn't put "and" between the two.

Oh? You haven't even attempted to prove that medieval warhorses were bigger than today's horses, or even how big they were.

The book is in English, you can check how the author explains it on your own.

One, I don't have the book, and two, I'm not going to dig through hundreds of pages to look for a quote or two because you couldn't be bothered to support your own argument. You can't just make a claim and tell someone to just look it up if they want to know your proof, you've got to present it yourself.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm not saying that it reflects the average size of horses, but that such big horses were in use.

No, it reflects that people wants to draw big horses.

 

[Traitorfish]

Or from some Medieval European town but there were no newspapers to write about that.

I'm sceptical. I showed King LeGear there to my girlfriend, who knows her horses, and her reckoning is that he's a Cleveland Bay or Irish Draught, breeds which in the first place don't emerge until the seventeenth century, and in the second place are typically about sixteen hands, not twenty-plus. Either the artist is exaggerating or King LeGear is a freak, both of which are possible, because he's depicted with terrible conformation (i.e. with a really messed up back and legs). You don't get horses like that now, let alone in the Medieval period.

 

[Phrossack]

I'm sceptical. I showed King LeGear there to my girlfriend, who knows her horses, and her reckoning is that he's a Cleveland Bay or Irish Draught, breeds which in the first place don't emerge until the seventeenth century, and in the second place are typically about sixteen hands, not twenty-plus. Either the artist is exaggerating or King LeGear is a freak, both of which are possible, because he's depicted with terrible conformation (i.e. with a really messed up back and legs). You don't get horses like that now, let alone in the Medieval period.

He was a Percheron, actually.

 

[Traitorfish]

Fair dos, although the same commentary applies.

 

[H4run]

When is Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox in Europe start to tolerating each other? Because I don't think Edict of Nantes which in the late of 16th century end it, I thought it just acts as a starting point for secularism and religious freedom. However generally, when does it end in general?

 

[Flying Pig]

Bismarck's legislation in Germany included an awful lot of anti-Catholic measures consciously designed to stir up bigotry, and that was towards the end of the 19th century. Even then, there's still parts of Scotland and Ireland where people are beaten up for their denomination.

 

[H4run]

Bismarck's legislation in Germany included an awful lot of anti-Catholic measures consciously designed to stir up bigotry, and that was towards the end of the 19th century. Even then, there's still parts of Scotland and Ireland where people are beaten up for their denomination.

That's tough, I remember once there were debates in WH regarding if Prussia delegate as Protestant power and Austria as Catholic power, if I know I come into this I should read that discussion more carefully. So if I say it is ended in Western Europe generally around 20th after WW1 (in general), is it pretty much accurate?

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm not sure that generalisation is fair. Catholics were given full legal rights in the UK in the early 19th century, but discrimination against them (almost inextricable from discrimination against the Irish in Great Britain) lasted until at least the last war. France gave legal recognition to all religions in 1789, but only separated church and state in 1905 and has had a remarkably bad record even since then. Hitler persecuted Catholics and was horrendously brutal towards Catholicism in the annexed territories. The Troubles only ended in the last two decades, if they can be said to have ended at all. Protestants in Spain were heavily persecuted under Franco.

 

[Domen]

No, it reflects that people wants to draw big horses.

Art of the Renaissance was focused on depicting things as they are.

Either the artist is exaggerating

There is a photo of this horse as well:

You haven't even attempted to prove that medieval warhorses were bigger than today's horses, or even how big they were.

Long time ago I had a discussion about that on another forum so later I will post the same info here.

======================================

Edit:

Sorry, this horse from the photo above is actually a different horse - and an even larger one:

http://www.greatbluemarble.com/Farm.htm

The largest recorded horse was a Percheron breed in 1903 that was 21 hands high, and weighed 3,940 lbs. A Suffolk breed in 1930 was 21 hands high and 2810 lbs., and the Brooklyn Supreme, a Belgian breed that lived in the 1930s (thumbnail picture above), was 19.2 hands high, and weighed 3,200 lbs.

So that horse posted by Phrossack was surely not the largest one ever recorded.

 

[H4run]

I'm not sure that generalisation is fair. Catholics were given full legal rights in the UK in the early 19th century, but discrimination against them (almost inextricable from discrimination against the Irish in Great Britain) lasted until at least the last war. France gave legal recognition to all religions in 1789, but only separated church and state in 1905 and has had a remarkably bad record even since then. Hitler persecuted Catholics and was horrendously brutal towards Catholicism in the annexed territories. The Troubles only ended in the last two decades, if they can be said to have ended at all. Protestants in Spain were heavily persecuted under Franco.

Thanks FP you really save me. I now know what to write, thanks to you

 

[Flying Pig]

Art of the Renaissance was focused on depicting things as they are.

No, it's (usually) focussed on depicting things in a believable way. A good illustration of the difference is Michaelangelo's David:

Leaving aside the usually-commented-on discrepancy between David's proportions and those of most people, his head and body are much too large for his size, his right hand is bigger than his left and his index finger too big. His eyes are colossal and actually don't point in the same direction. There's also the characteristically Classical exaggeration of the fold of skin at his hip - nobody actually looks like that.