Hitler's Economic Principles

I am well aware that Hitler didn't like socialists and really didn't like communists, but was this due to the 'November Criminals' myth and racial reasons, rather than economic principles? I'm starting to think that Hitler didn't really know anything about economics, and was merely opposed to socialists for the aforementioned reasons. More economically wise officials may have interpreted this dislike of socialists on an ignorant level, for a dislike of socialists on an economics level, therefore implementing anti-socialist policies, despite Hitler possibly having, in fact, reasonably socialist economic principles. That is what I'm interested in. Were his principles socialist, but the policies implemented anti-socialist?

With regards to trade unions, Dachs brought up the point that they were abolished by the Nazis. But they were replaced with the wider German Labour Front. Was this a more socialist, yet totalitarian, policy, creating organised labour under government, or was it simply a free market policy, getting rid of protection for employees?


According to that book, which a read a couple of months ago, it wasn't just Hitler. ALL of the fascist movement, starting long before Hitler became the key mover in it, was acting to suppress socialism. But at the same time, a few of the early fascist leaders were co opting portions of the socialist movement and rhetoric in order to gain power over the labor movements.

As far as what Hitler knew, he really only ever knew one thing, and that was how to rile people up and get them to follow him. I've never seen evidence that he knew anything else.

As for whether Nazi Germany followed any socialist principles, they were not pro welfare, they were not pro labor, they were not state ownership for the public good, they were state corporatism for the benefit of the military.
 
As for whether Nazi Germany followed any socialist principles, they were not pro welfare, they were not pro labor, they were not state ownership for the public good, they were state corporatism for the benefit of the military.

And they thought what was beneficial for the military was beneficial for the German people.
 
And they thought what was beneficial for the military was beneficial for the German people.

Maybe so. But it still was not principles and policies that in any way resembled what most people would think of as socialism.
 
Camikaze said:
With regards to trade unions, Dachs brought up the point that they were abolished by the Nazis. But they were replaced with the wider German Labour Front. Was this a more socialist, yet totalitarian, policy, creating organised labour under government, or was it simply a free market policy, getting rid of protection for employees?

Hitler was fairly paternalistic towards the German people, he pushed for Germans to holiday in Scandinavia and provided holiday resorts for youth inside Germany. the move to abolish unions was certainly a move popular with the industrialists... but it was almost a given considering that the SA had at times engaged in running battles with them. They also had links with the Socialists and Communists, had large memberships and therefore presented a possible challenge to the regime. I also don't remember any systematic attacks on German workers rights, he had Poles and Slavs aplenty for that :(.

Camikaze said:
I am well aware that Hitler didn't like socialists and really didn't like communists, but was this due to the 'November Criminals' myth and racial reasons, rather than economic principles?

I don't think economic principles were the main reason... the whole stab in the back thing had to be higher on the mind. I don't see Hitler dissecting Marx in a careful dissertation.

Camikaze said:
More economically wise officials may have interpreted this dislike of socialists on an ignorant level, for a dislike of socialists on an economics level, therefore implementing anti-socialist policies, despite Hitler possibly having, in fact, reasonably socialist economic principles. That is what I'm interested in. Were his principles socialist, but the policies implemented anti-socialist?

I don't think anyone in the Reichsbank or Finance Ministry was under any illusions as to how Hitler functioned. They assisted in the suppression of socialists and communists with all the financial weapons they had at hand... but they still engaged in large scale public works.

Cutlass said:
As for whether Nazi Germany followed any socialist principles, they were not pro welfare, they were not pro labor, they were not state ownership for the public good, they were state corporatism for the benefit of the military.

Business effectively functioned as an arm of the state. They were not pro welfare because of the Wiemar Republics experiences with welfare... that isn't to say that they didn't engage in welfare projects like large scale public works to get people back to work. I don't think they had the time to show if they were pro labor or not, they had time to crush the unions and little time to replace them with anything. The public good was conflated with the good of the state - the two should never part. The state corporatism they engaged in was not solely for the benefit of the military, but that claim becomes irrelevant the moment they entered the war the military become equal to the good of the people (they didn't go quite as far as Britain went for instance in mobilizing the economy).
 
True. But were Hitler's economic principles socialist, in regard to what he was trying to achieve by them?

I think you'd have to stretch awful far to make that claim. You could say that what Hitler did, he did because he thought it was best for Germany. But it's also true that he made angry rants and left his subordinates to fill in the details, and then never corrected them. Other than the wars and rearmament's, he didn't really seem to direct it at all. His subordinates were left to make best guesses of what he meant. So a few things came out for the average German, more things came out for the German capitalist. Yet more for the German militarist.
 
Actually, considering that it is said that Nazi Germany inspired Keynes and not the other way around, we can say that Keynesianism is vaguely Hitleristic

No. Keynes ideas were not inspired by nazi german policies. He might have picked up something from nazi propaganda, i.e. the myth of nazi work creation (which was minimal outside the massive military spending). The nazi job creation projects, such as building roads and drying swamps, were hugely exaggerated in national propaganda. Where Keynes believed in trying to employ people, the nazis simply thought of people as tools in the military machine. Hitlerian policies also pursued the suppression of private demand and the virtual enslavement of the worker to the nazi cartels.

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I have refuted the notion that Nazi regime was socialist many times. The regime was statist, but not a social democratic welfarist government, but a predatory... warfarist... regime of the bosses. Hitler abolished labor unions, drove down wages, sacrificed economic recovery that could have helped the people so that labor and resources could be allocated to the military. etc.
 
I think you'd have to stretch awful far to make that claim. You could say that what Hitler did, he did because he thought it was best for Germany. But it's also true that he made angry rants and left his subordinates to fill in the details, and then never corrected them. Other than the wars and rearmament's, he didn't really seem to direct it at all. His subordinates were left to make best guesses of what he meant. So a few things came out for the average German, more things came out for the German capitalist. Yet more for the German militarist.

Fair enough. How would you describe the idea of Volksgemeinschaft?
 
When have I ever talked about Hitlers grasp of economics? Honestly, aside from making the point that he was a restraining influence in the looting for personal gains stakes I've never bought him into the argument. Schacht was the finance minister....

Minister of economics, actually. Before that he was president of the Reichsbank. The point is Schacht didn't agree with Hitler's preference for autarky and protectionism; it was this conflict of interests that ultimately removed him from a position of power.

Correct he did fear it would cause inflation (which was only partially correct, he had engineered the system such that it didn't create quite as much as he thought). But the economic superstructure of the state, he created, lasted right up until the German economy had to gear up for total war. If you will, he created the playbook, everyone else followed it with the occasional deviation - re-armament and the formal creation of an industrial cartel. Just because he was no longer calling the shots, does not mean that his legacy, wasn't being followed.

The "economic superstructure" was already in place before Schacht; it's a given.

It didn't matter that he wasn't a Nazi, Nazi peacetime economics and even for a significant period wartime economics were his creation. He had the formulaic years to shape the system, and did so.

Obviously Schacht shifted way to the right after he co-founded the German Democratic Party. But the wartime autarkic/protectionist system was none of his making, as I pointed out above.

When have I contradicted this? I'm merely stating that Nazi economics as opposed to Nazi plunder owes most to Schacht . How that plunder was used also owes alot to Schacht , you should investigate the role he played in getting the industrialists (which Hitler was wary of) on side with the Nazis.

You seem to overestimate both Schacht's role in the war economy and the chaotic way the Nazi state actually worked. As concerns the first, Albert Speer did much more to ensure wartime production:

While Speer had tremendous power, he was of course subordinate to Hitler. Nazi officials sometimes went around Speer by seeking direct orders from the dictator. When Speer ordered peacetime building work suspended, the Gauleiters (Nazi Party district leaders) obtained an exemption for their pet projects. When Speer sought the appointment of Hanke as a labor czar to optimize the use of German labor, Hitler, under the influence of Martin Bormann, instead appointed Fritz Sauckel. Rather than increasing female labor and taking other steps to better organize German labor, as Speer favored, Sauckel advocated importing labor from the occupied nations — and did so, obtaining workers for (among other things) Speer's armament factories, using the most brutal methods.[72]

By 1943, the Allies had gained air superiority over Germany, and bombings of German cities and industry had become commonplace. However, the Allies in their strategic bombing campaign did not concentrate on industry, and Speer, with his improvisational skill, was able to overcome bombing losses. In spite of these losses, German production of tanks more than doubled in 1943, production of planes increased by 80 percent, and production time for submarines was reduced from one year to two months. Production would continue to increase until the second half of 1944, by which time enough equipment to supply 270 army divisions was being produced—although the Wehrmacht had only 150 divisions in the field.[75]

It's treason not to obey your lawful governments orders in time of war anyway - your former enemies who at the end of the war decide what is legal and what was not legal notwithstanding. The fact of the matter is that millions were in no position to bring down a dictatorial regime (like almost every other dictatorial regime) and that it was the upper echelons of the military in a military coup who tend to do it (outside of say the Sergeants Coup and a few other African examples).

His generals certainly grasped that fact, but Hitler was just doing what a great many people do having proved everyone wrong in the early stages, he had a confirmation bias. Just because some were party animals or had other conflicting reasons not to get rid of him, doesn't mean that a great many did not actively try and bring him down.

Though there were in all 42 assassination attempts against Hitler, none succeeded obviously, mostly because of poor organisation. That "millions were in no position to bring down a dictatorial regime" did not stop daring individuals from trying. But I would not say that "a great many did ... actively try and bring him down." (That just contradicts the former statement as far as numbers are concerned.) The upper echelons of the military - individual exceptions notwithstanding - completely failed to take the consequences of Hitler's disastrous leadership.

You haven't countered any of my points, beyond attempting to smear me as Pro-Hitler because I correctly deduced that something had to be holding back the agents of a dictatorial regime, in this case the dictator. It's not a glowing character reference its a simple recognition that Hilter for all his faults was not as spectacularly corrupt as he could have been ala Suharto or Marcos.

Nor have you really come up with a coherent narrative or system with which to explain 'Nazi economics'. Aside from lamely trying to say that Schant wasn't a Nazi (which is irrelevant) or that he didn't have anything to do with setting up the economy (it was his creation and it had continuity till later in the war). You can argue that the plunder aspect of the economy was important during the war, but you can't remove Schacht 's influence as any less important, given that the pre-war portion of 'Nazi economics' was as long as the wartime period.

On the contrary, I have countered several points, but you choose to ignore this. I did not suggest you being pro-Hitler, merely did I point out that you misinterpret Hitler's moderative role, if any. (You claim this, but give no examples or evidence to support it.)

If you want a "narrative or system with which to explain 'Nazi economics'", there are plenty of books on the subject; it is not my place to substitute for these. To say that the economy of the Third Reich was "his creation" is simply an exaggeration of Schacht's personal role, an understimation of the forces underlying the economy at large and shows a lack of understanding of the chaotic nature of the Nazi regime in general.

Suharto and Marcos do not compare to Hitler's totalitarian regime; that's just an underestimation of the horrors of fascism; a comparison to Franco would be more suitable. Hitler was corrupt for sure (all dictators are); he just hid it very well, as he was always aware of his public image. A man who condoned and authorized the Final Solution (and made sure no direct evidence linked him to it) is by definition not only corrupt to the extreme, but plain evil; to anyone who's ever read Mein Kampf it's crystal clear that such a man is by no means a moderate. That Hitler wasn't an extremist when it came to economics is mostly due to both his lack of knowledge of and alck of interest in the subject; he never approved a "total war" economy until late 1944, when it could make little difference anymore. (One reason for this was that it would mean a concentration of power in another man's hands, something he always was very suspicious of.)
 
Fair enough. How would you describe the idea of Volksgemeinschaft?

I'm not very familiar with it. It looks like mass indoctrination techniques similar to those used by other totalitarians, but with a racial/nationalist component rather that, say, the class struggle component that some of the communist totalitarians used. Or the religious component some theocratic totalitarian movements have/are using.
 
You can easily combine a planned economy with fascism. No need to call it socialist.
Well, but planned economy is one of the major aspects of socialism (I am thinking of marxist socialism here; I still find it wrong to call the current european systems socialism, but that is offtopic here) and thus there were common aspects of both. Also, you sincerly know (and it has been mentioned already in this thread in an indirect form) that Nazi is the short form of Nationalsozialist (national socialist) and the system is called national socialism. I don't think those words have been invented and used without reason.

Also, Gleichschaltung was a principle of the nazis that has some socialist aspects. Don't know if this word is known in english speaking countries. Basically it is about centralization and increasing the control of the state over a lot of things. That principle was a commonly used by the Nazis.

Maybe these things have been mentioned earlier. I haven't read all posts, some of them are quite long.
 
Hitler was a Keynesian since Keynes got some of his ideas by watching Hitler's massive spending. It is not surprising since Keynes was not concerned with the poor, saw the necessity for government spending, and was anti-Semitic.

As far as the Obama comparison, it is laughable considering the last eight years. Of course, it is ultimately a fools game comparing Hitler to an American president due to circumstances in the Wiemar Republic before Hitler took power and the fact that the Wiemar Constitution had a provision allowing for its suspension, were as our constitution does not.
 
Well, but planned economy is one of the major aspects of socialism (I am thinking of marxist socialism here; I still find it wrong to call the current european systems socialism, but that is offtopic here) and thus there were common aspects of both. Also, you sincerly know (and it has been mentioned already in this thread in an indirect form) that Nazi is the short form of Nationalsozialist (national socialist) and the system is called national socialism. I don't think those words have been invented and used without reason.

Also, Gleichschaltung was a principle of the nazis that has some socialist aspects. Don't know if this word is known in english speaking countries. Basically it is about centralization and increasing the control of the state over a lot of things. That principle was a commonly used by the Nazis.

Maybe these things have been mentioned earlier. I haven't read all posts, some of them are quite long.

Isn't North Korea the Democratic People's Republic of Korea?
 
I'm not very familiar with it. It looks like mass indoctrination techniques similar to those used by other totalitarians, but with a racial/nationalist component rather that, say, the class struggle component that some of the communist totalitarians used. Or the religious component some theocratic totalitarian movements have/are using.

To quote my textbook:
The Nazis preached the concept of the Volksgemeinschaft. This was to be a new society, a harmonious national community free from class division and social conflict.
I suppose you could see either 'national' or 'class' as the key word in those sentences.

Well, but planned economy is one of the major aspects of socialism (I am thinking of marxist socialism here; I still find it wrong to call the current european systems socialism, but that is offtopic here) and thus there were common aspects of both. Also, you sincerly know (and it has been mentioned already in this thread in an indirect form) that Nazi is the short form of Nationalsozialist (national socialist) and the system is called national socialism. I don't think those words have been invented and used without reason.

I think that the original party, when creating its name (after the German Workers' Party) wanted to, firstly, expand its base, by including socialist in the title, and secondly, placate the more working class wing of the party that was effectively quashed in the Night of the Long Knives.

Also, Gleichschaltung was a principle of the nazis that has some socialist aspects. Don't know if this word is known in english speaking countries. Basically it is about centralization and increasing the control of the state over a lot of things. That principle was a commonly used by the Nazis.

Basically the Nazification of Germany.
 
Isn't North Korea the Democratic People's Republic of Korea?
I don't believe that works here. North Korea - and the GDR as a second example - used theword for propaganda. If Hitler does that by the same reason he would risk a loss of members, because in a way he compares himself with those he hates most: the communists. No matter how americans define socialism Germans always connect that word with communism.
Also, those 2 words are still in use. In other cases they have replaced nazi terminology, but not here. Why if there would be no similarities between those 2 systems at all?

Basically the Nazification of Germany.
Well, sure, but that is a quite simple explanation. As I said it is about bringing institiutins and a lot of other things under the control of the state.
 
No matter how americans define socialism Germans always connect that word with communism.

German, and probably all, social-democrats do not connect socialism with communism at all. Communism is to the extreme right, while social-democrats consider themselves left of center. (Hitler ofcourse hated all socialists and communists, while having no qualms about naming his movement national-socialist - which shows off his political opportunism.)
 
German, and probably all, social-democrats do not connect socialism with communism at all. Communism is to the extreme right, while social-democrats consider themselves left of center. (Hitler ofcourse hated all socialists and communists, while having no qualms about naming his movement national-socialist - which shows off his political opportunism.)

Well, I suppose communism could be to the extreme right if you were looking at the spectrum in a mirror.

The connection was made due to the fact that both the SPD and the KPD were parties of the left. The connection was solidified by the fact that the KPD was formed out of a breakaway SPD faction, the USPD.

I found a nice little quote by Hitler on the topic of socialism that seems to indicate that his ignorance wasn't quite as bad as we might be thinking:
Each activity and each need of the individual will be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good. Let them own land and factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the state, through the party, is supreme over them regardless of whether they are owners or workers ... our socialism goes far deeper ... it establishes the relationships of the individual to the state, the national community ... why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings!

I suppose this shows that Hitler was not prescribing to any economic principles for economical ideological reasons, but for the benefit of his regime, and for the benefit of his other goals.
 
German, and probably all, social-democrats do not connect socialism with communism at all.
Although this is going offtopic I can't share this view. I never heard that a German is calling our system socialism ("Sozialismus"). Maybe this is only a question of misunderstanding. What I mean is, that americans seem to use the phrase socialism to describe a system like the german also, not only for systems like the GDRs. In Germany I never heard that oppinion. Germans call our system social democrazy or social market economy (depends on the context) and I share that opinion. By using the phrase socialism we think of systems like the GDRs (and I don't think that was much different in the 30s). By saying "connect it with comunism" I didn't mean that both are the same, although lot of people may think that here due to their level of education (in ordinary school they don't make a big difference between socialism and communism). The reason for this is, that for Germans social democrazy / social market economy is based on free market economy while socialism is based on planned economy. That's the usual definition here and as I said I share that point of view. That the members of the SPD call each other comrade is only for show. They don't plan to introduce a planned economy. Therefore it is correct to say in Germany socialism is connected to comunism (as a step towards communism). That may not be true for the american definition, but as the NSDAP and national socialism as the german version of fascism is a german "invention" we have to use the german definition here.
 
Well, I suppose communism could be to the extreme right if you were looking at the spectrum in a mirror.

Communism also looks like the extreme right if you see the political spectrum as a circle. Like I do.
 
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