HNDY01 Babylonian Rampage (AWE C3C)

Well, here's one shot at a dotmap:

HNDY1_DM.JPG


The western red dot allows the gems to be brought online before the 2nd city has a border expansion, or Babylon has a 3rd. Tough to burn a worker on a colony this early, before we have any slaves.

The dot SE autoclears the forest, but gets the game in range immediately. This might be a good place to build workers, after the forest is chopped off of the game.

North of Babylon might as well be tundra, since there is no irrigation possible until Electricity.

Most of the dots in the tundra are just guesses. We won't be past the grassland dots for quite a while.

This start raises the odd possibility of trying to rush to Map Making, so we can build harbors. For the areas outside of the grassland, this will be critical to the cities' growth.
 
2550BC – Looks like we have a spear heading up to the mountain and a settler factory ready to rock. Don’t know where Spain is but I’m suspecting N of the marsh. I’d like to get a couple of towns down this set of turns and then we can proceed.

IT- We grow to 6.

[1] 2510 – Happiness is a real issue and slider has to go to 50%. With only 4g the sci-sli has to go to 10% or 20%, either loses 1 gpt. I’m roading the wheat for gold. Can’t figure how to get the settler and growth at the same time. We have +3 food max and shields will complete settler in 3. Need another forest chopped.

[2] 2470 – Spear gets to mountain and will fortify next turn. This settler will complete prior to growth. If anyone can play this save to get the settler and growth timed let me know because I feel I’m missing something here. I could let the city riot one turn to get them in sync.

[3] 2430 – Nada
IT – Settler > Temple in 4 to cut happiness payments.

[4] 2390 – Settler goes west to gems BG. Road completes, start mine. Slider back to 30%. We have 1g and 0gpt.

[5] 2350 – Found Nineveh. Sliders go to 2.5.3. IW in 28. Nineveh set to bRax but can be changed by next leader.

[6] 2310 – Nada
IT – Temple > Settler in 4 with growth in 4.

[7] 2270 – Sliders to 2.6.2. IW in 26. Still 1g +0gpt.

[8] 2230 – Bringing the warrior over to have a look off Gem mountain.

[9] 2190 - Nada

[10] 2150 – Moved worker to BG in Nineveh. No sign of Isabella but she is up WC, IW and Myst.

Settler due next IT and barracks are due in 17.

THE SAVE
 
I think I'm up, so Got it. May be able to play this morning, or tonight at the latest.

As far as the issues with getting the settler to complete and growth to occur on the same turn: Since we don't have any fresh water, Babylon will only grow to size 6 anyway. So the 6-4 transition with settler growth is the best we can do. We can't make 4-turn settlers with the amount of food we have, but we may have enough shields to do 7-turn spear/settler combos with minimal waste.

Odd start. We will have a 1-city front for a long time, but the shape of the land is not conducive to a commercially viable empire. Long and narrow encourages mucho corruption. Good news is we can probably put down more than a dozen "safe" cities before we have to go on an offensive.

I'd now like to throw the question to Greebley: This is an ideal situation to aggressively "meet the neighbors". If I am reading the terrain correctly, there is only one tile from which the Mountain may be attacked. This means the AI will be bumping into each other to try to attack us, and we wouldn't see many troops. Having many contacts will be a great help in our research, and may allow us to get a technology lead with our safe cities. Thoughts? I am assuming we use a Curragh or two to find the others on this continent.
 
Originally posted by T_McC
I think I'm up, so Got it.
I'd now like to throw the question to Greebley: This is an ideal situation to aggressively "meet the neighbors". If I am reading the terrain correctly, there is only one tile from which the Mountain may be attacked. This means the AI will be bumping into each other to try to attack us, and we wouldn't see many troops. Having many contacts will be a great help in our research, and may allow us to get a technology lead with our safe cities. Thoughts? I am assuming we use a Curragh or two to find the others on this continent.
Click to expand...

Sooner is better with the dinky boats. As soon as Mr. AI gets MM they will build galley & our dinky's will get sunk.

I want to hear what Greebley (& everyone else) thinks, but it does seem that the sooner we can get all of the AI's switched over to building miltary units to march across the marshlands to our mountain top meat grinder (or is that "nice to meet you grinder" :lol: ) the better we are. We should be able to flush a lot of AI sheilds down the drain from there. Getting everyone in war mode seems to be more to our benefit in this layout. Any thoughts? I kinda think @T_McC was thinking along these lines, but wasn't positive.

@all Does anyone think we have a chance for the GL given we don't have a single city that can crack size 6 without an aqueduct?
 
HNDY1 - Here Comes the Coast Guard!

2150 BC (0)
Odd start for an AW game. I am really debating whether to continue the barracks at Nineveh, as a cheap temple will pull in a couple of more good tiles. Decide on none of the above, and set Nineveh to produce our 2nd worker, coinciding with growth to two. I intend to build Barracks in Babylon, as it can pull 10 spt at either size 5 or 6, and may allow a nice 6-turn settler/spear cycle. Bump research down two notches, as otherwise we might go broke when the settler pops. Don't want to have to re-build the granary or temple. Probably send this settler out naked, I'm not worried about barbs and we have no money.

Will likely only get one settler produced on my turns.

2110 BC (1)
Settler completes and heads for the deer tile. Warrior from Nineveh comes along for the ride. Swap Wheat back to Babylon. Worker still due next turn from Nineveh, as is growth.

2070 BC (2)
Nineveh: Worker --> Temple. I want the other BG before I worry about building troops.

2030 BC (3)
Found Ashur next to game tile. Starts on Granary. I think this will be where most of our workers and settlers will come after we let Babylon loose to build military. Give Nineveh the Wheat tile.

1990 BC (4)
Give Wheat back to Babylon. Workers road reg. Grassland tile.

1950 BC (5)
Babylon can work a coastal tile without slowing barracks or growth, and does so.

1910 BC (6)
Barracks complete. Babylon set to spear. After growth to size 6, then it can pop another settler.

1870 BC (7)
Lux has to go to 20% to keep Babylon happy. Next worker task is to hook up the gems. The coastal tile helps with happiness at this size, as there is no functional difference between 10 and 12 shields. Workers are chopping forest. If we have the choice, chop on grassland instead of plains, as we can't turn a plains tile into two food.

1830 BC (8)
No sign of the Spanish. Babylon: Spear --> Settler. Vet Spear is heading for choke point.

1790 BC (9)
Forest chop goes to Ashur, so no settler on my turns. But it is a BG, and will be very useful in MM for Babylon.

1750 BC (10)
Nothing happens.

Final notes:
It would be nice to hook up the gems soon, as the lux tax is costing us money. I didn't build any Curraghs to try to find people, but it may not be a bad idea as a next build for Nineveh, until it can work three land tiles. Babylon is the #1 city in the world, and we are 1st in population.

Ashur needs to be developed some more before it can take over settler production. I am thinking maybe Granary - worker - Temple in Ashur, need to get our worker count up.

Babylon will likely have to carry the settler load until we are starting to settle the Tundra fishing villages in our south. There, and in the plains to the north, cities can only work 2 land tiles a piece. So when we get start to settle those areas, it will be cramped. After Electricity we can disband some cities, but a whole slew of fishing villages could be very useful economically. If it weren't for War Weariness, this is a perfect set-up for Feudalism.

I figured the vet spear can replace the reg warrior on the mountain, and the reg warrior can come back to the core for MP duty.

I am fairly confident in the dots SW and SE of Ashur, but the tundra dots may need to be reconsidered. Ted will likely get two settlers to play with on his turns, so we won't be settling tundra yet. Plus, except for the Furs site it is better for us to put a couple of cities N of Babylon before we go 2nd ring+ in the South.
 
Sorry guys,

I need to be skipped for this first round


Ted
 
TMcC, Don't forget the save :p

It is an intersesting question (do some exploring or not).

Since we have sufficient lands south of the mountain for our start, exploring is ok. Basically, I think exploring will make going past the mountains harder in the early game, but probably about the same later on. Note that we can also stop the boats when you see the border 2 away. You know where the AI is but have not yet met them.

I wonder if the lack of units means the AI feels the mountain defense is too strong to attack, or if they are otherwise busy (AI war).

You know I would really like to save some money - not for tech but to establish an embassy on our one turn of peace. It could really help both to know what the AI was doing in terms of war, and to know where the capitol is.

On the dotmap, I would really like a town on that peninsula to grab the sea tiles we otherwise miss.

The changes I am suggesting are in Green:

HNDY1_DM2.jpg
 
Originally posted by Greebley
TMcC, Don't forget the save :p
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would help.

Hammer in 1750 BC

Originally posted by Greebley
Note that we can also stop the boats when you see the border 2 away. You know where the AI is but have not yet met them.
Click to expand...

Well, the point of exploring is to meet the other civs and get our research costs down without significantly increasing the danger to our cities. Just finding out where they are doesn't do us much good.

I like the idea of getting an embassy or two, it's kind of sneaky.

On your Dotmap: I think we can found on the X-ed out red dot and the SW green dot. The SW green dot is a fishing village that works the sea and two tundra tiles, the red dot gets 5-6 land tiles to work. Slide the SE green dot one more tile SE and we can get three cities in that area. The SE red dot uses two tundra tiles, one grass and the sea, the re-located green dot gets the rest of the land tiles. 1st ring overlap with fishing villages is a moot point.
 
Ted's skipping this round, so I got it

There was a file on the upload server titled HNDY01_1750BC that was zipped. T_McC always zips his files, and it matches what his turn log says so I'll play it.

I' guessing T_McC uploaded, but just forgot to link the save he uploaded to his turn log.

EDIT Cross posted with T_McC, so I have the correct file now for sure and am playing.

Not playing just yet

Got a couple of errands to run.

In the meantime next two settlers to the north (1st ring)? Where do you want to settle in the north?

How about 3 tiles due N of Babylon (where the spear is standing), and 3 tiles NE of babylon (coast no forest).

Settle Purple incese later.

HNDY01_1750BC_N_City.JPG
 
Handy,
I would make a worker or two as well, perhaps shortly after the settler. Lets get a road to the N.

I would be inclined to settle your Red circle and then right on the Insense with the two settlers. This would get us a second Lux faster. I also like the idea of the mountain being in our territory boundaries. The towns would only use 2 forests each, but still that is 5 shields (minus corruption) which is not too bad. The towns to the S will make more than that but only with a lot of worker turns.

I would also settle the square 2 SE of the incense as well. Since we can't irrigate the Plains we can only use 2 of them per town, and so a higher density makes sense. Fortunately, there is lots of sea to make up for it.

[Edit: I am agreed on more TMcC's more town idea to the S. Every town is a minimum of 2 gpt (unit cost), so more is generally better, and it sounds like we do have enough land to justif y it]
 
I really like the idea of an embassy with the next civ we meet. It may cost us in slower research right now though. I think it would be nice to get the incense and gems online with a road to the front sooner. The extra cities will certainly help with unit costs that killed us early in Nehru. Feudalism, hmmm, the unit costs look nice, the corruption is problematic but better than despot and not so bad right now. I think it merits serious consideration depending on lands the AI has up N.
I am also thinking the mountain choke will cause the AI to go around when MM comes in for them. We should spend the next 20-30 turns building our empire so we can take advantage of our despot GA under more cities. I'm praying for iron but with the luxes we have the distribution of resources may skew the iron, horses to the N. If we don't have iron it will take a large contingent of bowmen to head N and we would really have to secure some iron prior to the AI getting Feudalism. Bowmen vs. Pikes could get messy.
All in all, it looks like we're stuck with super dense build for max cities and all cities on bowmen coming up. Hope we can stay at #1 pop so that we can outproduce our continental foes.
Good luck all. Fingers crossed for iron.
 
To reply on a couple points:

I would not send the next two settlers north. I would first settle the grassland sites in the South, as these are the sites that can grow. These will also be better sites for producing workers. I would start settling the North when the alternative is the southern tundra/fishing villages. Which (I think) is the third or 4th settler.

Feudalism is not an option, as the gov't produces war weariness.
 
This is a really weird start, and I think we need to begin to formulate a longer-range plan.

Here's what I know:
We will have a one-city (tile) front until we choose to go north of the Mountain. This is an ideal situation for an AW game.

We can found ~16 cities south of the Mountain. Very few of these will require more than 1 defender/MP. Our unit support costs will be able to go towards attacking troops (or defense-by-offense troops).

With three lux, 1 MP and a cheap Temple, we don't need any lux tax until our cities are larger than size 6. I also know none of our cities will be larger than that before Construction.

Of those ~16 cities, all but 5 or 6 will be limited to 5 shields before corruption, even with Aqueducts, until Electricity.

Babylon can pull 12 shields at size 6 in Despotism. In Monarchy + an Aqueduct, it can do >20. Nineveh can pull 10 shields in Despotism, and will max out at ~12 in Monarchy, regardless of how large it gets. Ashur can make 10 shields in Despotism, and ~16 at size 12 in Monarchy. No other cities look like a good bet to make >10 shields.

All but one or two of our cities will be coastal, so once Harbors come into play we can be very strong in trade.


This analysis leads me to conclude the following:
The most important wonder for us is not the G.Lib, but rather the Pyramids, to aid in getting those fishing villages to grow. If they grow, we should be able to out-research the AI on our continent, or at least keep pace.

The 2nd most important wonder will be Leonardo's. This is because we are not well set up to wage warfare in the Knight or Cavalry era, as we don't have enough capable troop producers. Our best era will be MDI/Longbow vs. Pikes, or a mass upgrade from Horses to Knights. One possible strategy would be to try to hold off our GA until we are in Monarchy, and have Chivalry. If we have Horses or Iron, this is very doable, as we don't have to be on the offensive except against landings and stray units at the Mountain. Use our GA to build Knights, and use these as the force to push north of the Mountain.

Just some idle speculation, but we may have to plan for an eventual Palace jump north of the Mountain, into the jungle/proto-grassland. In addition to the lack of fresh water, we are eventually going to suffer from having so much of the 1st and 2nd ring to Babylon be underwater. On the plus side, if we build the FP right about where Greebley's central green dot is, we would have a very low-corruption empire, and distance corruption will hurt us more than rank corruption.
 
No iron in sight

Goals:
Hook up Gems

IBT
Zzz


Turn 1 1725 BC
Babylon – settler – spear (I’ll get this spear in two. See the spreadsheet @ end of post). I think we can best use Babylon in a [spear 2 / settler 3 / spear 3 / settler 3/ spear 3] start over @ spear 2 pattern. If anyone has a better plan I’m open. This one gives us 2 settlers & 3 spears every 14 turns with only 4 wasted shields and is the best I could come up with.
Babylon is working BG, BG, MC, and FG for 9 shields & 2 extra food.
No benefit from lending the Wheat to Nineveh, it grows this turn.
One of the workers goes to gems (2 turns to get there) and the other worker to Nineveh’s BG.
The settler will build 3 tiles due N of Babylon, and the next settler goes to the incense.
We really could use a road to the Mountain Fortress.

IBT
Zzzz

Turn 2 1700 BC
Something weird is going on. The shield box was empty last turn (1725 BC) because we finished a settler. I pulled 9 shields last turn in Babylon (home, BG, BG, MC, FG), but there are 10 shields in the box at the beginning of this turn. I should have to work the FP & FG to get 11 shields to build the spear, but I can get a 19 shields spear by pulling 10 shields working the wheat instead of FP. I guess it’s the 19-shield spear exploit.

One worker begins a mine and the other worker arrives at the gems.

IBT
Zzz

Turn 3 1675 BC
Babylon – 19 shield spearman completes – settler
Babylon is working MC, MW, BG, BG, for a total of 10 shields to get a settler in 3. The box is empty (I checked)
F4 reveals no new contacts. Isabella looks better with makeup on.
F1 50/20 IW in 3 earning 0 GPT
The second spear arrived at the mountain. I sent the warrior back home to be used for MP.
Nine more turns until gems.

IBT
Zzz

Turn 4 1650 BC
Found Ellipi 3 tiles due N of Babylon - barracks
We can make 3 GPT and still get IW in 2 so slider is 40/20
Only 10 shields go into the box in Babylon. :(
Babylon is working
Babylon is still working MC, MW, BG, BG, for a total of 10 shields to get a settler in 2.

IBT
Zzz

Turn 5 1625 BC
Babylon grows to 6 & pops a settler next turn. Zero waste [dance]
IW in 1, can’t move the slider

IBT
We get IW and I select the Wheel so we can find the ponies.
Babylon – settler - spear

Turn 4 1600 BC
There is no iron :wallbash:
I’m sending a veteran spear on an iron hunt.
Ellipi switches to dinky boat.
Settler begins the trip to the incense
The warrior that left the mountain is going to Nineveh, which is empty at the moment.
Babylon is now size 4 and will work MC, MW, BG, BG to grow and produce a spear in 3 turns wasting 3 shields. After this 3 turn spear we can do another settler in 3, then two spears back to back in 5 turns total.
No sign of Spain. This does not feel like AW. Spain must be at war up north, which is good news for us. Perhaps they are all fighting over a herd of cows next to a river.
We can get the Wheel in 14 earning zero GPT. We don’t have writing, so it seems a little early to start saving for the “buy an embassy” idea. I want to find the horses.
Next turn the temple is due in Nineveh, so we can lower the lux slider.
I hope we find Iron not too far to the north.
Check F2 just to make sure there is no Iron under a city. No such luck.
+1 GPT Wheel in 10 and 13 in the bank

IBT
Nineveh – temple – set to worker.

Turn 5 1575 BC
We can lower the lux slider to zero for this turn. Everyone is content.

IBT
Zzz

Turn 6 1550 BC
Spear arrives on the mountaintop, so now we have 2 on the mountain again.
Worker goes to BG between Ashur & Babylon. When this mine is complete, Babylon can use this new BG. Nineveh can have Babylon’s’ old BG due W of Babylon.
Can keep slider 50/0 for 1 more turn.
Wheel in 12 +1 11 in the bank
No sign of Spain.
I think I’ll send another spear out as soon as I’m sure there is no way the AI can get to the mountain before the replacement spear does. No iron was tough enough in the Rome monarch game.

IBT
Babylon – spear – settler

Turn 7 1525 BC
Babylon is working MC, MW, BG, BG, FG and will pop a settler in 3 turns with no wasted shields. Babylon will grow in 4 turns, so you will go down to size 3 for 1 turn. Building 2 spears over a 5-turn cycle will get the size back up. The 19-shield spear was basically no help in the cycle.
Slider has to go to 50/10 or Babylon will riot.
Wheel in 11 +0 GPT and 12 gold in the checking account.
The spear we just built gets to the mountain in 6.

IBT
The spear looking for Iron meets the Hittites. maybe three turns sooner than we otherwise would have met them
No trades can be done. They have 11 gold, incense & silks, Wheel, WC, Writing, Mysticism, Math.

Turn 8 1500 BC
I won’t be sending a second spear out exploring I guess. We have two spears on the mountain and it was a lone Hittite warrior. Maybe you can send another one in the next set of turns.
Moving north.
Wheel in 9 +0 12 in the bank.
Our spear moves north and the Hittite fades into the darkness.

IBT

Nineveh – worker – barracks

Turn 9 1475 BC
Moving north
Wheel in 9 +0 12 in the bank

IBT
Gems are here.
Babylon – settler – spear (2 in a row) Babylon is size 3 for 1 turn.
Ellipi – dinky boat – barracks
We ought to build a dinky boat in Ashur, - which is on the other side of the continent from Ellipi - after the granary is done.

Turn 10 1450 BC
Slider is back to 50/0 +1GPT with 12 in the bank and Wheel due in 7
Babylon works MC, MW, BG this turn & adds a BG next turn. The goofy turns are going to be 1375 and 1350 when you switch to MC, BG, BG, FG (no wheat) and then MC, BG, BG, FG, FP (2 forest tiles – no wheat). That’s when you’ll see a 19-shield spear if you are lucky.
The settler is going to Ashur where you will inherit him next turn.
The new worker is 1 tile N of Babylon with the intent to road all the way to the mountains. Now that we know the Hittites and Spain, we need a road.
The gem worker moves to Nineveh’s BG.
Found Uruk – Incense and set to barracks.

Make sure Babylon gets it’s BG 1 back from Nineveh when it grows next turn. Otherwise it will take you 4 turns (not 3) to complete the spear.

1450 BC and no Spanish coming to fight us. I hope we will not be facing a giant Chinese juggernaut later on. Based on the number of turns, and the fact the spear looking for Iron has seen no cities, we must be pretty far south of everyone else.


>> Save 1450 BC <<
 
@Handy - Not a 19-shield Spear. Growth is calculated first, then production. When the city grew the governor assigned it to tiles that produced 10 shields, so that is what was in the box. What you saw was not "production at size 4, then grow to size 5", it was "grow to size 5, production at size 5".

@Greebley - MM alert on growth and Granary in Ashur. Specialists are nice people.

Back @Handy - Uruk is a canal city. A boat can go in one side and out the other, so we don't have to be picky about where we build boats.
 
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