Hobbes or Rousseau?

Who more accurately describes basic human nature?

  • Hobbes

    Votes: 23 67.6%
  • Rousseau

    Votes: 11 32.4%

  • Total voters
    34

Mark1031

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Hobbes or Rousseau who more accurately describes basic human nature?


In his early writing, Rousseau contended that man is essentially good, a "noble savage" when in the "state of nature" (the state of all the other animals, and the condition man was in before the creation of civilization and society), and that good people are made unhappy and corrupted by their experiences in society. He viewed society as "articficial" and "corrupt" and that the furthering of society results in the continuing unhappiness of man.


Hobbes provides a series of powerful arguments that suggest it is extremely unlikely that human beings will live in security and peaceful cooperation without government. His most basic argument is threefold. (Leviathan, xiii.3-9) (i) He thinks we will compete, violently compete, to secure the basic necessities of life and perhaps to make other material gains. (ii) He argues that we will challenge others and fight out of fear (‘diffidence’), so as to ensure our personal safety. (iii) And he believes that we will seek reputation (‘glory’), both for its own sake and for its protective effects (for example, so that others will be afraid to challenge us).
 
Rousseau of course. If man was really a wolf to man, we would still live in caves...

NB : That doesn't mean that man can't be bad... be careful. However, in the End, I still believe in the nature of man.
 
"the noble savage" idea has been empirically proved to be wrong almost everywhere it has been tested. So Rousseau was evidently wrong in that.

But that does not make Hobbes right either.

It is a question of who is less wrong. That is a tough one. For eons humankind has been Hobbesian. Maybe in a few million years we will become a noble savage among the stars.
 
Given that Homo Sapiens is a pack animal we have an inbuilt desire to create society even if in a state of nature that society amounts to little more than a tribe... and what is nationalism but tribal instinct writ large?

It's easier to destroy than create so the fact we've come this far indicates we are not inherrently violent psychopaths only kept in check by exterior force but that isn't to say we're an intrinsically nice species either.

Overall I'd have to give the Hobbesian viewpoint the edge over Rousseaus idealism but there's a massive grey area between them where the actual truth can probably be found.
 
Rousseau writes a nice fairy tale, but when it comes to philosophy, I am far more inclined to take Hobbes.
 
I share Rousseau's ideals somehow, but I fear Hobbes is closer to the bitter truth... ;)
 
I would like Rousseai to be correct; unfortunately, he is not. I will have to say Hobbes is closer to the truth; although he certainly hasn't hit the nail on the head, either.
 
To me, what Rousseau believes is what we would all like to believe and aspire to. A classless society in which everyone is benevolent and caring for his or her fellow man. However, Hobbes is much closer to the truth. Though we still don't live in peace and security even with government, it certainly makes us more secure and the world more peaceful. The fact that man is individualistic and greedy is a well-known fact, how else would capitalism work? Moreover, everyone knows the generic advice that people give on prison if you get in: "Either beat someone up on the first day, or become someone's b*tch." Even if you look at these reality shows, you will see that alliances are formed out of fear, which often dictates the nature of man. This seems to support Hobbes pretty well. Not to mention, I do not know of any time when society has been overturned without there being chaos. The French revolution didn't exactly reveal the noble savage within all of the peasants. Without man, there is no society, and without society, there is no man. Man is an inherently sociable being. I am neither a Romantic nor a Realist, but Rousseau's characterization of man is definitely too Romantic for me.
 
Well, I'm afraid to say that the presentation of the controversy is a bit off balance here.

I have actually read the Leviathan, in my Constitutional Law classes. The case Thomas Hobbes makes just gets advantage of the developed concept of "homo homini lupus est" (man is man's wolf), bringing the notion that man is inherently a "beast", which's bad features must be kept in check by the governmental power.

The context was that of all-poweful kings raising, and several thinkers trying to justify technically the power they had. Much of the teaching of the time was that the "Kings" were selected by God, and man should obey them in submission to the deity. Hobbes, however, took it a step further, and took away the factor "God" from the equation. He argued that as man is a "beast", the only way to keep man's primal urges in check was by creating a society - conceived by him as "men under an authority". Everyone would submit to the laws of the authority through the "social contract", an inherent pact that all members of society signs up naturally, by enjoying the protection society provides, giving up part of their "inherent liberty" (the freedom to do anything) for a "pragmatic freedom" (the one limited by what was granted by the State - the Leviathan - that would be smaller, but effective against violation).

Basically, he argued that "you chose your leader, now you cope with him". So, you guessed right, guys - Hobbes wrote in defense of "Absolute Kings", like Louis XIV famous claim "I am the State", and his ideas greated influenced the early - and long abandoned - legal doctrine of "The King can do no wrong" or "Irresponsability of the State" - meaning, no matter how much the State was invasive or unfair, it's action was better than leaving men on it's own, and hence, it enjoyed a presumption of being "the best path possible", and than, logically, what was perceived as "wrong" or "unfair" would be so only because people cannot see the big picture, and how things are better that way.

Jean Jacques Rosseau, on the other hand, when released his Famous Masterpiece "The Social Contract", offered a whole other perspective to Hobbesian ideas. He did argued the theory of the "good savage", or "Blanket Table" - there is, man, in the "state of nature" would do no harm because there would be no drives to impulse him in the path of evil - no competition, no disputes, nor anything else that would encourage man to use his abilities in a destructive way.

Living in society, however - a necessity of mankind - would make men competitive, and sectorial, and destructive against other men, leading to a situation of conflict that is virtually identical to the Hobbesian "lupus" setting, only that he acknowledged the environment as a factor of the equation.

Here lies the first problem with the proposed question - for Rosseau was not a naive that failed to perceive the existence of humane wickedness - he just looked for the sources of that wickedness, and he never denied that the setting of a destructive society would necessarily rise (as morality could not develop before the moral dilemmas first came).

The proposal Rosseau offered to the destructive setting much resembled that from Hobbes - the State keeping the wickedness in check - but, see, Rosseau perceived society as any "group of man" - wheter under authority or not - and the existence of relations, of any sort, was enough to caractherize a social setting.

He recognized, than, that society was previous to authority, hence solving a big contradiction of Hobbes' proposal - there is, if there was no society before authority, than there was no one who would be able to empower the authority legitimally.

This little change led to a very different conclusion, for he, than, introduced the notion that authority was not an end in and on itself - but a mean through which society seeked it's goals - that is, balance and peace, granted by governmental power and intervention over destructive urges.

He proposed, than, that as "authority" was but a delegate from "society", if the authority, by abusing the power which was granted to it by society, became another factor to detract it from reaching it's ends, it would be betraying it's mandate. When that happened, society was legitimate to cancel the delegation given to the authority, restore freedom and select another authority which better responded to social urges - and also that, when necessary, even means such as revolution were valid, for they aimed nothing more than restoring society as the center of the equation, correcting a distortion represented by an authority that made itself more important than the people it was supposed to represent.

Rosseau's ideas greated influenced several major world events, such as the French Revolution and the American Independence, by providing ideological grounds to the desire to reject tyranny and restore freedom and the opportunity to pursuit happiness without constriction.

Hence, the dichotomy presented in the original post actually does not exist - Hobbes and Rosseau had different axioms, true, but axioms that had a lot of common places and mutual ground, just with presentation and depth enhancing the way perception and development of the consequences of the given ideas should be carried out.

And, given that, I think it's quite clear that Rosseau had a superior understanding of human needs, wishes, and how to handle the abuse of both freedom and authority, the two extremes he tries to balance.

Regards :).
 
After reading FredLC's post I change my vote to Rosseau
 
andrewgprv said:
After reading FredLC's post I change my vote to Rosseau

Flipflopper! Sorry, couldn't resist. ;) Back to the topic! :p
 
Hey Fred, way to go!

Your vast knowledge is not only limited to economics, you always inspire awe and envy in me! :thumbsup: :blush:
 
Thanks FredLC. I realize that I did not do justice to Rousseau and that his views supported much of the enlightenment political transformations. It was really just a fancy way of asking peoples view of basic human nature rather than for an assessment of their overall political philosophy. On this Rousseau would clearly win. Fairly or not Rousseau is credited with the view of the ‘noble savage’ and Hobbes with the ‘nasty brutish and short’ view of our natural state.
 
andrewgprv said:
After reading FredLC's post I change my vote to Rosseau

It’s always good to keep an open mind. ;)

Longasc said:
Hey Fred, way to go!

Your vast knowledge is not only limited to economics, you always inspire awe and envy in me! :thumbsup: :blush:

WOW, what can I say to that? Thanks.

Mark1031 said:
Thanks FredLC. I realize that I did not do justice to Rousseau and that his views supported much of the enlightenment political transformations. It was really just a fancy way of asking peoples view of basic human nature rather than for an assessment of their overall political philosophy. On this Rousseau would clearly win. Fairly or not Rousseau is credited with the view of the ‘noble savage’ and Hobbes with the ‘nasty brutish and short’ view of our natural state.

To be entirely honest, I’d say that I also didn’t do justice to either. I haven’t read “Social Contract”, but Leviathan is a very large and complex book, and it certainly have it’s merits. I don’t want my post to look as if Hobbes was an evil man trying to justify the terror of tyrants – think of it as something like the “eye for an eye” law, or Malthus’ doctrine of hunger. While they looked evil by themselves, they were actually an assessment of the circumstances, and a valid one, even if contaminated by error.

I have to point out, though, that if what you wanted was to ask what was people’s view on mankind, than you have formulated the question poorly. Your wording certainly gives a huge edge to Hobbes. I myself would vote for him, after reading first post, if I was not actually aware of what their stances actually were, there is.

Nevertheless, if people actually read threads before they vote, now they should be able to get the meaning of what you really wanted.

Regards :).
 
I'll take logic over biblical waffle any day.

However, both great minds have viable points to give us.

The best thing is to draw a logical conclusion using their guidlines.

:)
 
I'd like that great philosopher of society, The Radioactive Monkey, entered into the poll! :D

From what I know of Hobbes, he cast a beady eye on the English society of the 17th c. civil war, didn't like what he saw, and proposed a remedy for it.

Rosseau may have been a bit more profound than the "Noble Savage" stereotype, but that bit is what stuck with people back in the 18th c. Very "enlightenment" of him, like Condorcet's conviction that the human spirit is ever progressing towards truth an rationality.

And then the Germans looked at the world, realised that, what the hey...?, most of humanity is behaving in the most irrational ways. At which point they invented the concept of "Kultur/culture" (in a modern sense), as a factor that could explain why "rational man" so rarely lived up to his name.

Between Hobbes and Rosseau you still get a choice of whether man is devil or angel, and he is neither.
Try defining what it means to be "human"? Not the easiest of tasks. Usually we end up employing some kind of metaphor to do it. (Devil, angel, ape, beast...)
 
CurtSibling said:
I'll take logic over biblical waffle any day.

However, both great minds have viable points to give us.

The best thing is to draw a logical conclusion using their guidlines.

:)
What Hobbes is saying is basically what the Bible says. The Bible says that every person is a sinner and that there is no good in him. We are violent by nature. here is a quote from the Bible that backs this up.
Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
 
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