Holding Multiple Offices

[GeorgeOP]

Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Offices

A) Limits to Running for Offices.
I. No Citizen may run for more than one office during an election cycle.

B) Limits to Holding Offices.
I. No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
IA. An exception to this is a member of the Triumvirate assuming the duties and powers of a vacant Triumvirate office.
II. A member of the Cabinet may hold one other Cabinet office, Gubernatorial office or a Deputy position.

III. A Governor may hold one other Gubernatorial office, a Cabinet office, or a Deputy position.

IV. A citizen with no other positions may hold two Deputy positions.

V. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.

I wanted to start a discustion about Section 8 of our CoL. I am not trying to change it at this time. I just want to get feedback, especially from our experienced players.

Should people be allowed to hold multiple positions? I understand that people are capable of doing it, and I don't doubt the people that are doing it now can't continue to do it. I just worry that having the same people in the government holding multiple positions keeps other people from holding jobs. I feel a lot of new people would like to be a deputy or similar, but the jobs are being taken by people who are already Ministers of a different office. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong, there is probably some reason for that. I just don't see it right now.

 

[Nomad Bryce]

lol, I assume you are talking about me! I am sorry, I didn't mean to take jobs from others, I just wanted an oppurtunity to be active directly in the Ministry of the Interior. Workers are my true CIV passion I wasn't planning on running for any offices actually. But I got nominated for minister of culture and then elected. So I made a website for ministry of culture, and then applied for deputyship in Interior (My personal favorite ministry) so I could run and maintain a website for that department. Next election, since this activity is now considered bad practice, I will not hold two positions in government. Sorry George =[ I really do just want to have fun and help the Demogame citizens

 

[DaveShack]

As a citizen I would support a CoL amendment to replace Section 8 with one which says no duplicate offices at all.

Just realized Section 8 is the one that Klinger was trying to use in M*A*S*H to get a mental health discharge. Coincidence, or prophecy that this CoL section is numbered 8?

No offense intended towards Nomad Bryce, I don't question the individual, just the idea.

 

[Chieftess]

Just realized Section 8 is the one that Klinger was trying to use in M*A*S*H to get a mental health discharge. Coincidence, or prophecy that this CoL section is numbered 8?

It's never a coincidence.

 

[Blkbird]

In this game it might be working out. But if there are fewer people playing, we'll be having problems filling all the positions (plus deputies). Look at C3DG7...

 

[GeorgeOP]

No, please don't take offence Nomad. I actually don't want any jobs you currently have. I think you can do a great job doing multiple jobs. I wouldn't want a change to occur until a new election cycle occurs. I just wanted imput from the veteran members about the plausability of limiting offices.

Blkbird, wasn't C3DG7 the last one played, or am I wrong on the numbers? I think the last C3DG lost members because of the launch of cIV and cIVDG. Did the other DGs before the last one have serious shortage of players at the end?

Another idea I had about Section 8. You can only have the same office twice in a row, but you can then take a different office. Does this sometimes make it so the same people keep holding offices, but they just switch which offices they control? I thought an interesting idea would be that you not only can't have the same office, but can't hold the same job type (Judicial, Tri, Cabinet). So the President after two terms could not run for any Tri office, etc. Or is there enough turnover that this is not needed?

Again, I'm not proposing anything, I just want to throw out ideas and see wht they can grow into. Or have people call me crazy and shoot down my ideas. I don't mind.

 

[Swissempire]

I support no multiple offices!! not because i want nomads offices(which i do), but i don't want anyone getting to much power, (like me) and holding two offices!!

 

[fe3333au]

Surely I comes to having members able and wanting to fill offices ... I'd have a caveat to No multiple office holders UNLESS the positions are vacant .

At the moment there are too many people who want and can fill empty positions to allow multiple office bearers ... just remeber the aim of this game is to enjoy and share the experience of cIV !!!

If a clause in the constitution is unwieldy or ambiguous change it to streamline the game

Just an idiots 3 cents

 

[DaveShack]

All it really takes to change this is for someone who is not on the court to write the replacement law and post it for people to comment on. Justices can't really take the initiative on this because it would be a conflict of interest to then participate in the JR to approve the new law as being legal.

 

[GeorgeOP]

Ok, let's try this one.

Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Office
B Limits to Holding Office
I No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II A member of the Cabinet may hold a Gubernatorial Office.
III A deputy member of the Cabinet may hold a Gubernatorial Office.
IV A Governor may not hold a second Gubernatorial Office unless no other eligible citizen can be found.
V Another Cabinet member or deputy may assume another deputy position if no elgible member aplies for the position and a citizen's initiative is taken. The citizen's initiative must be priveate and pass at least 60% in favor.
VI No one may have more official positions than one unless granted by this law.

How does this look to everyone?

 

[DaveShack]

I think opinion has been leaning more towards not having any multiple offices at all. Instead of "if no eligible citizen can be found" what about only allowing a 2nd office if a citizen's initiative gets a 60% majority to allow that specific instance. It would have to be a private poll since it affects an individual.

 

[GeorgeOP]

I think opinion has been leaning more towards not having any multiple offices at all.

Does this mean you don't think Governors should have multiple positions? I think that if we end up with a lot of cities (especially likely if we become a war-like nation) we might run out of players towards the end of the game with all the governors. The original CoL also says that governors can have two cities, but that would effectively give them two votes in the Governors Council.

 

[DaveShack]

Does this mean you don't think Governors should have multiple positions? I think that if we end up with a lot of cities (especially likely if we become a war-like nation) we might run out of players towards the end of the game with all the governors. The original CoL also says that governors can have two cities, but that would effectively give them two votes in the Governors Council.

That's what creating states / provinces is all about. Once we have enough cities to form a state (minimum 3 cities per state) then a single governor can handle all three, with just one vote on the governors council.

 

[GeorgeOP]

Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Office
B Limits to Holding Office
I No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II A Cabinet member or deputy may assume another deputy position or Gubernatorial Office if he is elected as the single running candidate with at least 60% of votes bar Abstain.

Ok, let's try this short version. Right to the bone.


[edit]I like Blkbird's wording.

 

[Blkbird]

How about:

Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Office
B Limits to Holding Office
I No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II A Cabinet member or deputy may assume another deputy position or Gubernatorial Office if he is elected as the single running candidate with at least 60% of votes bar Abstain.​

 

[GeorgeOP]

Ok, there has not been discusion on this in 24 hours. What's the next step? Do we make an informal poll? Or do we make a formal poll and get it passed?

 

[ravensfire]

II A Cabinet member or deputy may assume another deputy position or Gubernatorial Office if he is elected as the single running candidate with at least 60% of votes bar Abstain.
​

I'm curious - what exactly are you intending with this? Do you mean the person was the only accepted candidate (at which point why post a poll), or elected in a field with multiple candidates with a 60% majority? It's not clear.

If it's truly going to be a problem, there's a much simpler approach. Continue to allow citizens to be elected to only on office. If an office is declared Vacant, allow Governors to apply to fill that Vacancy if no other citizen applies 48 hours after the office is declared vacant, or after the start of the term if nobody runs for that office.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Blkbird]

I'm curious - what exactly are you intending with this? Do you mean the person was the only accepted candidate (at which point why post a poll), or elected in a field with multiple candidates with a 60% majority? It's not clear.

What's not clear? It's perfectly clear, as long as you don't twist my words. I wrote "only running candidate" and I meant just that - the only candidate in the election. As for why it still requires a poll if there is only one candidate, it's because that candidate needs 60% of votes (bar Abstain) to be elected. The election poll would look like this: Do you vote XYZ for the office of ABC? (Yes / No / Abstain)

 

[GeorgeOP]

Revision 3
Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Office
B Limits to Holding Office
I No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II If 72 hours passes after a Cabinet member or Cabinet member elect posts a job openning for a deputy or Gubanatorial position and no elgible citizen applies, the job shal be declared Vacant.
a A Governor may apply or run for a position before it is declared vacant, as long as they give up their Governor position once they accept the new position.
b If an office is declared Vacant, Governors may apply to fill that Vacancy without risk of losing their governorship.
III There is a strict limit of two official offices for any one citizen.

Ok, how does this sound. I made it 72 hours, because deputy and governorships are simply handed out. There is no waiting period for them to be accepted. This also allows member elects to start the process early if the voting is finished before the term is over.

 

[ravensfire]

Blkbird, I'm not twisting your words. It's not clear to me, okay?

Immediate problem - you have a useless provision in there - the 60% provision. I have no problem with polling a single candidate vs abstain, time waste, but not problem. What will happen is that some citizens will ignore it, some will vote abstain to be perverse and most will actually vote yes because there is just one person there. There won't be anyone that actually fails to get 60%, thus it's a junk requirement.

Keep the process simple, keep it easy and make sure that we only duplicate offices when we have to. Under your proposal, a citizen without office could be ignored if the Pres. wants to appoint a buddy. That's bunk.

-- Ravensfire