Holy Land ca. 1250 BCE Scenario Dev Thread

[Plotinus]

I was thinking of making a sort of ancient Mesopotamian/Middle Eastern worker, but it would have looked exactly like the Firaxis one, so there didn't seem much point.

 

[Maimonides]

-I added several intersting links concerning this scenario to the 2nd Post. I'll keep adding to it as time goes on.

-I changed the Phoenician leader to King Abibaal. He was king of Tyre from 990 BCE to 978 BCE & father of Hiram I. He is the earliest Tyrian king known.

-I made the Moabite leader King Mesha. He was a contemporary of the Israelite king Ahab. He left us an account of his war against the Israelites & a description of his kingdom in the stela known as the Moabite Stone.

-I made the Aramean leader King Ben Hadad I.

These leaders could change if I find earlier ones. None of them are old enough for the start of this scenario in 1250 BCE.

-I made the Egyptian leader Pharoah Ramses II.

-I added a Tech Tree section to the OP. Right now, it just lists the Eras.

**** Etzion Gever

i looks to be, like you said, right between Akaba and Eilat, and a bit to the north.
there is a bit of uncertainty about the exact location, and i have found a few mentions of it being IN Eilat.

i think it is possible that its a northern adjacent town to Eilat, maybe closer to the Timna Copper mines?
it seems they ha a copper processing plant there, so id bet it was closer north, maybe in a suberb of eilat

for our purposes id either make a joint city (eilat), or pop it closer to Timna (unless you have a settlement planed there)

If Etzion Geber is to be a starting city in this scenario, it needs to be on the coast. The Biblical & Moabite sources say fleets of ships were launched from there. I placed it at the site of modern Eilat, but I will probably change that. It's possible that Etzion Geber is just another name for Eilat. It should probably just be on the city list for either the Israelites or the Edomites & not be a starting city.

Thanks for the link. Maybe we should stick to English. That's an interesting site, but it took me a LONG time to read it.

I'm glad you mentioned Timna. Here's what I know about it so far:

It's a valley (or wadi) in the southern negev north of Eilat. It contains the formation known as Solomon's Pillars. It was a copper mine operated by the Egyptians throughout the Bronze Age. They built a temple there for the miners. They abandoned the site just before the start of this scenario. The Midianites took over the site for about a century replacing the Egyptian temple with one of their own. They also mined gold there. Then it seems to have come under the control of the Israelites.

I wasn't planning on including the Midianites in this scenario because their territory is almost entirely off this map's southern edge. The Bible reports that the Israelites under Moses encountered Midianites at Kadesh Barnea, but archaeology has no signs of them that far north. Moses' father in law, Jethro, was reportedly a Midianite priest (which is very odd).

My current plan is to make Timna an Egyptian starting city with a temple & access to the Copper resource. I haven't placed it yet. I need to find a better map of ancient sites in the southern Negev & the eastern Sinai & I need to finish the terrain there 1st.

This brings up another discussion. I don't see ant way to properly do this scenario without adding a Copper resource & probably a Tin resource. Bronze was THE metal used for much of this time period. Iron came into use about 1200 BCE, but it was very expensive, hard to get & few people held the secret of how to produce & craft it. This will become clearer further along in the scenario's development.

that is to say, horsemen, per se, were not that common, and were used primarily as scouts.
chariots, especially the heavy egyptian type were the primary heavy unit.

That sounds right to me. Chariots were the M1 Abrams tanks of their time, but they had terrain restrictions & were very expensive to produce & maintain.

i cant seem to find mention of the other peoples cavalry habits, but it does mention that horses were widely used.

Thanks!

maybe keep the 2 move (maybe even make it 3 move, and lower the attack rate to 1?
lower the shield cost too? 15-20?

Movement rates are going to be hard to do on this map I think. We'll know more when there is a playable version to test.

a warrior scout of sorts?
make it available to all nations, with a horse resource?

The standard Horseman unit will probably do fine for this. I'll look at options when the time comes.

I also wonder if there should be a camel unit. Maybe you could look into this. The oldest reference to camel-mounted warriors I've found is from the 8th century BCE when camel-mounted Arabian tribesmen helped the Assyrians invade Egypt, but that's after this scenario.

I've been thinking about where the Horse resource should go. There will probably be one in the Sinai for the Egyptians' chariots, one near Gaza for the Philistine chariots & one in northern Israel near Hazor or Megiddo for the horses the Kingdom of Israel were reported to have by the Arameans. The Phoenicians can probably do without it as they will have access to Iron, Cedar & Dyes. They weren't known as horsemen, anyway. I'm not sure where else I should put Horses.

what are your plans regarding the chariot units?
- id make IRON and Horses compulsory for them,

Definitely Horses, but chariot use definitely predated the Iron Age. Maybe Copper instead. I'm not sure if metal was necessary for chariot construction or if it was decorative.

maybe even make it similar to the Roman Legionary I, II, III, from the scenarios?

I like that idea. It's a little early for me to think about specific units, but I will need to know if there was a progression in chariot technology during this period. If there was, I'd love to try to recreate it in the scenario.

That's 1 Kings 4:26 in the usual notation. Of course, 2 Chronicles 1:14 says that Solomon had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horses, suggesting a rather less overwhelming force than the account in Kings.

I tend to be skeptical about Biblical numbers. According to that, Solomon had more horsemen than Alexander the Great did 600 years later... The Biblical link provided above by soul-warrior says that Solomon used 40,000 laborers & 30,000 quarriers to build the Temple. That's just impossible. There's simply no way Solomon had a bigger labor force than the one that built the Panama canal... I take Biblical numbers with a grain of salt.

Sorry, let me re-phrase that.
They actually weren't FORBIDDEN to use them,
but rather, encouraged not to rely on them.

God’s chosen people of ancient times, the Israelites, though, were not to be like the Egyptians and other contemporary nations that considered horses and chariots indispensable to safety and independence. Israel’s kings were forbidden to increase horses for themselves. (De 17:14-16)

14 “When you eventually come into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, and you have taken possession of it and have dwelt in it, and you have said, ‘Let me set a king over myself like all the nations who are round about me’; 15 you should without fail set over yourself a king whom Jehovah your God will choose. From among your brothers you should set a king over yourself. You will not be allowed to put over yourself a foreigner who is not your brother. 16 Only he should not increase horses for himself, nor make the people go back to Egypt in order to increase horses; whereas Jehovah has said to YOU, ‘YOU must never go back again by this way.’
-De 17:14-16

That passage is specifically talking about the future king, not the people. Also, I take "horses" there as a metaphor for wealth. That says to me that the king shouldn't use his position to increase his own wealth.

Also, keep in mind that chariots were more or less useless in the mountainous area the Israelites occupied.

Agreed. That's why I said the following in my last post: "The coastal plains are about the only areas on the map that would have worked well for mounted or wheeled combat. The stirrup wasn't introduced for several more centuries. The rest of the terrain is hard enough to hike through, let alone ride. According to the Bible, the Israelites defeated the Philistines in a battle by choosing terrain unsuited for their chariots."

Here's a modern view of the terrain next to ancient Akko. Notice how rocky, dry & uneven it is. A chariot ride there would be bone-jarring, but that's the coastal plain-about as good as it gets for chariots in this region:

Spoiler :

Looking AWESOME btw, I'm almost done with my mod, so I'd be happy to help in anyway you'd like.

Thanks! If you finish your mod, it will slow down this scenario's development because I'll have to spend hours playing it.

I'm almost done with the map & about halfway done researching & placing starting cities. After that, I'll need lots of technical help.

Hey, here's just a crazy unit idea maybe a certain theologian will make (hint hint). An Israelite worker/warrior. Remember when they rebuilt Jerusalem, after the return from exile? They were working with a tool in one hand and a sword in the other. It just makes sense for a nation of slaves.

They weren't slaves at the start of this scenario, but they were certainly working in a hostile environment.

I was thinking of making a sort of ancient Mesopotamian/Middle Eastern worker, but it would have looked exactly like the Firaxis one, so there didn't seem much point.

Just rename the Firaxis unit & post it as a new unit!

Seriously, a new unit is always a good thing. The more, the merrier, but it will be a while yet before I'm ready to seriously consider units. 1st, I have to:

1. Finish the Sinai terrain.
2. Finish placing & assigning starting cities.
3. Add all the new civs.
4. Figure out how the Tech Tree should work.

THEN I'll need to figure out the units... This project will take awhile, but I'm enjoying the research & I think it will be worth the trouble.

I will post the minimap of the map when the terrain is completed. The scenario could probably be posted for alpha testing when the civs are all added just so folks can play the map & comment on starting positions.

Why are all my posts the length of a dissertation?