How did Poland hold out longer than France.

[Domen]

At the start of Fall Rot the Allies still had ca. 1200 combat-ready tanks, but only ca. 10% of them were within remnants of 3 armoured divisions (2., 3. and 4.).

 

[Domen]

When it comes to French divisions I managed to count (situation on 10.05.1940):

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General Reserve - 14 divisions (incl. 2 armoured and 1 motorized)
North French Coast - 1 division

1. Army Group:

7. Army - 6 divisions (incl. 1 armoured and 2 motorized), 1 fortified sector, 2 brigades (tank & recon)
9. Army - 9 divisions (incl. 1 motorized and 2 light cavalry), 2 brigades (tank & cavalry)
1. Army - 11 divisions (incl. 3 armoured, 3 motorized), 1 fortified sector, 3 brigades (2 tank & 1 recon)
2. Army - 8 divisions (incl. 2 light cavalry), 1 fortified sector, 2 brigades (tank & cavalry)

2. Army Group:

Reserve - 2 divisions
3. Army - 13 divisions (incl. 1 light cavalry), 2 fortified sectors, 5 brigades (4 tank & 1 cavalry)
4. Army - 5 divisions, 2 fortified sectors, 2 brigades (tank)
5. Army - 9 divisions, 2 fortified sectors, 3 brigades (tank)

3. Army Group:

Reserve - 2 divisions, 1 fortified sector
8. Army - 7 divisions, 3 fortified sectors, 2 brigades (tank & cavalry)

Army of the Alps (Italian front) - 5 divisions, 5 fortified sectors, 1 brigade (tank)

TOTAL IN METROPOLITAN FRANCE (not including British Expeditionary Force and Polish divisions & brigades):

92 divisions (incl. 6 armoured, 7 motorized, 5 light cavalry), 18 fortified sectors, 22 brigades (16 tank, 2 recon, 4 cavalry)

For a grand total of 132 French "Great Units".

Source:

http://france1940.free.fr/oob/oob.html#TOSE

http://france1940.free.fr/en_index.html#Army

=================================================

Fortified sectors were units of more or less divisional size, that's why I counted them too.

Apart from that there were still 3 divisions in Norway on 10.05.1940 (French Expeditionary Force to Scandinavia), as well as numerous French military units in North Africa (Algeria, Tunisia and Morroco), Middle East (French Middle-East Mobile Forces) and colonies (French West Africa, French Equatorial Africa, Indochina and Madagascar).

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To this we have to add Dutch army (10 divisions and 3 brigades), Belgian army (22 divisions). Belgian divisions included 18 infantry divisions as well as 4 partially motorized divisions (2 cavalry and 2 infantry). I don't know if apart from those divisions Belgian army also had any brigades. Dutch divisions included 8 infantry divisions, 1 light division and "Peel" division. Belgian army had got 308 armoured vehicles, while Dutch army - 46.

The Belgian army numbered ca. 600,000 soldiers and the Dutch army over 200,000 soldiers on 10.05.1940.

As well as British Expeditionary Force and Polish divisions and brigades in France.

Regarding divisions of the British Expeditionary Corps there were in total 16 of them:

1., 2., 48., 3., 4., 50., 42., 44., 5., 51., 52., 1. Armoured, Beauman Division, 12., 23., 46.

But the last three (as well as Beauman Division probably) were without artillery and in general weak.

And I'm not sure if all of them arrived yet before 10.05.1940 (maybe some of them arrived after the campaign started?).

There were also 4 British brigades apart from these divisions (this includes artillery brigades too, if I remember correctly).

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The Poles, on the other hand, had in total 2 combat-ready divisions (1st and 2nd) on 10.05.1940:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Grenadiers_Division_(Poland)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Infantry_Fusiliers_Division

Further two Polish divisions were being mobilized and were partially ready later (especially the 3rd), but still very weak:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Dywizja_Piechoty_(PSZ)

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Dywizja_Piechoty_(WP_we_Francji)

Apart from that the Poles deployed 2 brigades - 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade and Independent Highland Brigade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Armoured_Cavalry_Brigade_(Poland)

Independent Highland Brigade was not there on 10.05.1940 - it arrived yet in June from Norway (in May it still fought in Norway):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Independent_Highland_Brigade

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And here user Veres provides (in Polish unfortunately) detailed info about losses of French army in Fall Gelb (May 1940):

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php...t&sd=a&hilit=holenderskich&start=850#p1418151

He counted that in total - apart from other units (including fortified sectors, brigades and smaller units) - the French army lost 30 divisions destroyed in combats against Germans between 10.05.1940 and 04.06.1940 (in Fall Gelb) - including 18 infantry of different types, 6 motorized, 2 cavalry and 4 armoured.

So "only" 18 infantry and 2 cavalry divisions but 4 (out of 6) armoured and 6 (out of 7) motorized divisions - a very painful defeat.

So French army lost approximately 1/3 of its divisions (including also those 5 deployed against Italians) in combats against Germans yet in Fall Gelb.

Many of the French units which were not destroyed also suffered heavy losses.

Apart from that the entire Belgian army had been lost in Fall Gelb as well as the entire Dutch army and most of British Expeditionary Corps too.

Not a single Polish division had been lost in Fall Gelb, since they were almost not involved in combats in May (only 1st Grenadiers was).

Germans, on the other hand, didn't lost a single division destroyed or eliminated, although some suffered heavy losses.

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In total Allied losses in Fall Gelb alone (10.05.1940 - 04.06.1940) were probably an equivalent of ca. 2 - 2,5 entire Polish Armed Forces as of 1939.

However, some of those losses - mainly when it comes to British Expeditionary Force - included divisions which were destroyed or eliminated, but most of their soldiers were evacuated via Dunkirk (but still equipment losses were close to 100%).

 

[Domen]

I made this chart - German daily combat deaths (KIA, DoW) in Western and Polish campaigns (Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS and various irregulars not taken into account). X-axis shows days of the campaign (not date but number of days), Y-axis shows numbers of killed:

My main source were Volksbund database and casualty statistics. In case of Poland the chart is based on almost full data from the VB database and overall casualty statistics of Heer. In case of the Western Campaign the chart is based on a sample of data from the database (ca. 8 - 9% from each day) and overall casualty statistics of Heer too.

There is no doubt that highest losses during Fall Rot were sustained on two days - 5 June and 9 June.

I think this is directly connected with two significant events:

5 June - Fall Rot begins, Army Group "B" of gen. von Bock launches its offensive.
9 June - Army Group "A" of gen. von Rundstedt joins by launching its offensive.

So in Fall Rot clearly most of German losses were suffered during the breakthrough phase. Or - more precisely - during the initial stage (first day) of each breakthrough operation (the one of AG "B" and the one of AG "A").

In Fall Gelb & Fall Weiss any breakthrough phase is hard to distinguish if basing only on casualty data.

.

 

[Domen]

Some more charts here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=162988&start=30#p1553868

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=162988&start=15#p1550887

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=162988&start=30#p1553877

This show both similarities and differences between the two campaigns. Among the differences - if data for Poland from 45. Inf.Div. is representative also for other units - is much bigger percent of casualties suffered due to small arms than in France (and much smaller percent suffered due to artillery fire).

Another difference is when it comes to KIA German officers in both campaigns:

In Poland 79% of all KIA officers were Leutnants and Oberleutnants, 15% Hauptmanns and Rittmeisters, 6% all other ranks.

In the Western Campaign 85% were Leutnants & Oberleutnants, 9% were Hauptmanns and Rittmeisters, 6% all other ranks.

So in Poland a significantly bigger percent of all KIA German officers, were captains.

 

[sydhe]

This is how: They drafted bears!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojtek_(soldier_bear)

 

[History_Buff]

You bumped a thread that had been dead for a year to post that?

 

[negZero]

You bumped a thread that had been dead for a year to post that?

Worst yet, it was already mentioned.

 

[Domen]

You could at least start a new thread.

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If already resurrected... - animation of the first day of the battle of Mlawa-Ciechanow (01.09.1939):


Link to video.

 

[Domen]

The Germans were still sorting out the details of Blitzkreig warfare; they screwed up quite a bit in the Fall WeiB.

Where exactly? Apart from minor mistakes they rather did everything as well as later in France (during the campaign against France similar minor mistakes on tactical scale also took place). The only strategic failure I can think of, is the fact that German Air Reconnaissance missed the movement of the Polish Army "Poznan", which later resulted in a strategic-scale surprise for the German HQ in initial stage of the battle at the Bzura.

However, that was a failure of reconnaissance, which resulted mainly from the fact that Army "Poznan" was marching at nights.

That was not a failure of Blitzkrieg warfare per se, which usually worked in Poland exactly as well as later in France.

To minor tactical mistakes we can add the failed attempt of capturing Warsaw offhand and attacking frontally with Panzer Division "Kempf" against Mlawa fortifications on 01.09.1939 - both of which resulted in heavy losses in tanks. However, already on 02.09.1939 Panzer Division "Kempf" was ordered to bypass and flank the fortified position from the East and attack the weakest point in Polish defences on the Polish right flank.

Poland was a training ground for France.

Not really - Spain was a training ground for both Poland and France.

Poland was a "training ground" for France in the same way as France was the "training ground" for Barbarossa and Barbarossa was the "training ground" for Normandy. Etc., etc. New experiences & problems were encountered in each subsequent campaign.

The Soviets did not enter the war until the Germans had already beat Poland's military.

Not entire Poland's military. If not the Soviet invasion the resistance against Germany could be prolonged compared to the real timeframe, because Poland still had sizable forces to resist the Wehrmacht. Large part of that force was later effectively eliminated by the Soviet invasion forces.

According to Soviet military reports from the invasion of Poland, the Red Army captured 454,700 Polish POWs (394,498 by the Ukrainian Front and 60,202 by the Belarusian Front) - which is more than the Wehrmacht captured during the entire campaign according to German reports. These numbers are certainly inflated by Soviet propaganda - but still the number of Polish troops and units in Eastern Poland was considerable when the Soviets invaded.

Of course all defences were prepared against the German advance from the West. The Poles were totally unprepared for the Soviet invasion from the East (even though preparations could be seen on the Soviet side of the border). But still there were capabilities to put up much more resistance against the Soviets than it happened in reality. Garrisons of many cities could resist in a similar manner to Grodno and a few other cities, but commanders decided not do so.