How does 1UPT effect if you will buy Civ 7

[AntSou]

I just quickly checked Masters of Magic on yt. By "actually have to fight" I'm taking you mean you are taken to a battle screen.

I don't mind battle screens as long as I can auto resolve. Taking me to a screen to conduct a battle is 1UPT with extra steps. I still need to dedicate too much time shuffling units.

It's used in Age of Wonders and Heroes of Might and Magic. The difference is, those are fantasy settings where the creativity for unit abilities is wider. I'm not so keen on it in a Civ game. I know that because I already tried it in Humankind.

 

[Leucarum]

Combat subgames always sound like they should offer a lot of tactical nuance and fun, but I've yet to see them deliver. In my experience they tend to just get repetitive and stale very quick.

I suspect part of it is that players tend to be good at ensuring they only make one-sided engagements; which in turn makes the subgame a foregone conclusion most of the time and a waste of player time...

I guess total war is maybe the best example of it done well, but there the battles are the meat of the game and the campaign feels more tacked-on... And even then auto resolve is hit very frequently.

 

[pokiehl]

(Corps and Armies doesn't really fix it)

This is really the key point I think "limited stacking" advocates are missing. We already have limited stacking in Civ 6 and it solved nothing.

The sole actual benefit of Corps and Armies in Civ 6 is to reduce strategic resource use per turn for units that require it.

 

[AntSou]

It's not quite limited stacking if you can have "unlimited" amounts of stacks.

Other than the "tactics as culture" elements I mentioned before, there's other potential boons to armies and soft army limits, like a fairly straightforward attrition / supply system. E.g. An army's supply on a given tile is equal to all surrounding tiles supply. If Army Size > Supply Size, take damage.

Make some improvements, like roads, have bonuses, and features like rainforest, etc, have supply penalties, and now we have a supply system, roads that matter for armies, rainforests and marshes that feel difficult to traverse (other than the boring penalties to movement or bonuses/penalties to combat). It's simple enough to be in a Civ game and makes unit movement potentially more interesting and intertwined with the map features. Since you're only controlling a few armies at any given time, checking a tile's supply isn't a chore.

 

[uppi]

Limited stacking was already done in the Call to Power games. You had a max stack size and needed to combine different unit types in your stacks. Combat would take you to a combat screen which would then autoresolve.

It worked early game, but starting mid-game, when you had enough production you would just create multiple copies of your ideal stack. So the gameplay was essentially the same as if you had 1UPT with only one unit type - an army.

 

[Horizons]

Limited stacking was already done in the Call to Power games. You had a max stack size and needed to combine different unit types in your stacks. Combat would take you to a combat screen which would then autoresolve.

It worked early game, but starting mid-game, when you had enough production you would just create multiple copies of your ideal stack. So the gameplay was essentially the same as if you had 1UPT with only one unit type - an army.

Yeah I was just thinking that, from CTP.

Even so, it's better than stacks of doom and 'armies' consisting of three copies of the exact same unit (and not even available until the late game).

Stacks of doom are the absolute worst and the main reason I don't replay older civ games.

 

[fantsu]

As much as I hate 1UPT in Civ, it doesnt me stopping playing them.
SODs are also fine and not perfect either.

I would like how many old complex late70s-early80s wargames handled it by building your own unit from TOE of many sorts of troops with its own HQ as administrative. You could add just a bit of things you want, say infantry or artillery or AA, even recon or observation points.

Some kind of civic-system (maybe cards like civ6) could limit the organization size and complexity in different ways.

So 1UPT but with complex custom unit pretty much.

 

[aieeegrunt]

As much as I hate 1UPT in Civ, it doesnt me stopping playing them.
SODs are also fine and not perfect either.

I would like how many old complex late70s-early80s wargames handled it by building your own unit from TOE of many sorts of troops with its own HQ as administrative. You could add just a bit of things you want, say infantry or artillery or AA, even recon or observation points.

Some kind of civic-system (maybe cards like civ6) could limit the organization size and complexity in different ways.

So 1UPT but with complex custom unit pretty much.

One of the Civ2 clones does this, C-Evo I believe

 

[VGhost]

I always hated stacks and I've been pretty happy with 1UPT. But it's not a deal-breaker if the rest of the game is solid.

 

[Jarms48]

I really like the idea behind corps and armies. It's a nice middle ground, it just comes far too late in Civ 6. So if Civ 7 can introduce corps far earlier, and armies slightly earlier I'd be fine with that.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

I wouldn't want stacks but I would want the ability to move units through occupied tiles, provided they can't perform an action.

 

[planetfall]

1UPT is only a factor, it just depends. Towers of Doom were not that bad, you still had to build the individual pieces and get them in place. Civ6 really needed 2UPT because the city defenses are so strong. With such strong city defenses, it's possible for a weak unit to withstand an attacking force of 6+ units. Military strategy always had said need 3+:1 for reasonable victories. So the choices in civ6 suck, you either have to war like mad in early game, or wait til good bombard units that can get past walls and apply a seize quickly. Too much of the warfare is trying to figure out how do I attack this city. I have 12 units within range, but I need 3 to apply seize, 2-3 to bombard, and 1 to attack. IF you have to attack 1vs1, the play takes too long and the cost of attacking versus alternative production and development is just too high.

So if walls and city defenses were 1/2 of current civ6 config, then 1UPT is fine, but if keep current, need at least 2UPT. The "fix" is worst than the problem.

Beyond that this is more a bogus question. It sounds like the angst about moving from square tiles to hex tiles. Yes it effects game play, but really has little effect on if the game is fun to play or not.

 

[aieeegrunt]

1UPT is only a factor, it just depends. Towers of Doom were not that bad, you still had to build the individual pieces and get them in place. Civ6 really needed 2UPT because the city defenses are so strong. With such strong city defenses, it's possible for a weak unit to withstand an attacking force of 6+ units. Military strategy always had said need 3+:1 for reasonable victories. So the choices in civ6 suck, you either have to war like mad in early game, or wait til good bombard units that can get past walls and apply a seize quickly. Too much of the warfare is trying to figure out how do I attack this city. I have 12 units within range, but I need 3 to apply seize, 2-3 to bombard, and 1 to attack. IF you have to attack 1vs1, the play takes too long and the cost of attacking versus alternative production and development is just too high.

So if walls and city defenses were 1/2 of current civ6 config, then 1UPT is fine, but if keep current, need at least 2UPT. The "fix" is worst than the problem.

Beyond that this is more a bogus question. It sounds like the angst about moving from square tiles to hex tiles. Yes it effects game play, but really has little effect on if the game is fun to play or not.

Having to solve a sliding tile puzzle every time you move your units is not something I would call “a little effect”. It also clearly cripples the AI

After some experimentation, it’s clear that 3 UPT hits that sweet spot between avoiding both extremes of micromanaging doom stacks and the (far worse) sliding tile puzzle. This comes as no surprise to me, since this is exacrly the solution that the ancestors of Civ; the Consim board games of the 70’s ~ 90’s iterated to.

You avoid the sliding tile puzzle. It keeps unit density down. Three units can easily be shown on the map at a glance without needing you to click on and unpack the stack to see what’s in it.

There is a mod called ARS Improved Movement that people really need to try

 

[planetfall]

I'll check out that mod. Having 3UPT seems ideal,
-- no army restrictions on having same units
-- no army power reduction by joining grouping
I could see like civ4: bombard, medlee, cavalry in one tile.