How Evolution is possible along with Christianity (A Thread for Christians)

[pboily]

I'm really just tired of arguing over something that I don't think fundamentally matters

A tip of the hat to you, sir.

 

[Homie]

I can say that there is at least one [creationist] in Norway.

And here's another, yeeha!

And I hear you Elrohir, its really getting tiresome to debate it, same 'ol thing over again. It doesn't matter a great deal religiously, but it matters even less scientifically, so I really don't understand why atheists bother to debate it. I mean, does it matter if you are an evolutionist or creationist believing scientist when it comes to conducting science? You would perform experiments the same way and follow the scientific method the same way, your work would look the same.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually, not to argue too much, but yes it does. There are serious flaws in the methodology of Creation scientists, and one cannot accept most of what we know about the earth without accepting its age and evolution.

 

[Homie]

Ok, science is here to be useful for us, right? We use it to make pharmaceuticals (biology), machines (physics), substances used in products (chemistry) etc...

So when making a drug or curing a disease, it doesn't matter one tid bit if the scientist believes the Bible or Darwin. Evolution or creationism has no practical implication, so why is evolution even taught in science class when it is of philosophical importance only? It should be taught in philosphy class.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Ok, science is here to be useful for us, right? We use it to make pharmaceuticals (biology), machines (physics), substances used in products (chemistry) etc...

So when making a drug or curing a disease, it doesn't matter one tid bit if the scientist believes the Bible or Darwin. Evolution or creationism has no practical implication, so why is evolution even taught in science class when it is of philosophical importance only? It should be taught in philosphy class.

Except that every major application of science comes from principles found by scientists who accept the theory of evolution.

 

[Homie]

Except that every major application of science comes from principles found by scientists who accept the theory of evolution.

What?? This is complete nonsense. Please show me how evolution, or creation for that matter, has practical implications in science.

Do you think one couldn't have invented the car, the aeroplane, penicillin, raw oil destillation, nuclear power etc.. without the belief in evolution? One could, and one did.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What?? This is complete nonsense. Please show me how evolution, or creation for that matter, has practical implications in science.

Do you think one couldn't have invented the car, the aeroplane, penicillin, raw oil destillation, nuclear power etc.. without the belief in evolution? One could, and one did.

Let me put it this way: all the breakthroughs in understanding that we have in biology and paleontology come from scientists working in an evolutionary framework. Creation scientists have contributed nothing to what we understand about the world.

And all the other fields of science - physics, chemistry, whatnot - came from scientists who accepted evolution as any theory that derives from the scientific method.

 

[onejayhawk]

Really, they're not incompatible if you realize that Creationism is a metaphor for what happened.

Not necessarily even a metaphor. It could be a serious attempt to describe something for which the writer has no references.

Consider. If that you were a product of the 2nd millenium BC, and that all of the history of the origin of the world was revealed to you in a dream or vision. What would your account look like to the sharks on this board (nothing personal FredLC).

J

 

[Homie]

Let me put it this way: all the breakthroughs in understanding that we have in biology and paleontology come from scientists working in an evolutionary framework. Creation scientists have contributed nothing to what we understand about the world.

Understanding the world! Sounds like that belongs in a philosophy class, thanks for backing up my point Eran.

Furthermore, how about addressing my request?

Please show me how evolution, or creation for that matter, has practical implications in science.

And you showed....NOTHING! Please show me one invention made, one drug created, one disease cured that need evolution to be there as a basis.

And all the other fields of science - physics, chemistry, whatnot - came from scientists who accepted evolution as any theory that derives from the scientific method.

WOW! I know that you slipped up here, you are not really that ignorant, of course you know that all those fields of science were there long before Darwin introduced the theory of Evolution. Certainly this was a slip of the tongue, so I'm not going to hold you to it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

When I say "what we understand about the world", I mean in a scientific sense. There is nothing philosophical about knowing that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun (on average).

And while it's true that physics is older than evolutionary biology, modern physics tends to be advanced by those who understand evolution just like any scientific theory. By the way, did I mention how modern geology started? Some scientists wanted to prove that the Flood happened by looking at the rocks - but instead found that it couldn't have.

And genetics would make no sense at all if we didn't have the framework of evolution in which to understand it.

 

[Homie]

There is nothing philosophical about knowing that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun (on average).

Agreed, that fact also has nothing to do with evolution or the discussion at hand.

Yet again you have have not showed one single shred of evidence of any practical implication of the belief in evolution, why is that? Could it be because there are none?

Just fess up and admit you are totally wrong on this one. If you can't think of anything, I'd ask Perfection if I were you, at least he knows something about the matter.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Agreed, that fact also has nothing to do with evolution or the discussion at hand.

Yet again you have have not showed one single shred of evidence of any practical implication of the belief in evolution, why is that? Could it be because there are none?

Just fess up and admit you are totally wrong on this one. If you can't think of anything, I'd ask Perfection if I were you, at least he knows something about the matter.

I don't quite get what you are asking here. Do you want the evidence that leads scientists to conclude that the theory of evolution is the only way to explain speciation? That's another thread. Do you want me to show how it is making us healthier or happier or anything? Well, it hasn't done as much as chemistry, but like I said, genetics, which help us treat diseases, can really only be understood in evolutionary terms. I may not live longer because we know that birds came from dinosaurs, but that has nothing to do with whether it is true.

So, my points are:
Evolution is the best way - really, the only way - to explain speciation given the genetic and paeontological evidence.
No one's salvation depends on getting it right. I am not trying to prove evolution to you. I am just saying that there aren't "two sides" to it. You want to believe Creationsism, go ahead. You are rejecting good science but whatever. But what is far more important to remember is that accepting evolution is perfectly compatible with being Christian.

 

[Homie]

I don't quite get what you are asking here. Do you want the evidence that leads scientists to conclude that the theory of evolution is the only way to explain speciation?

Not at all.

Do you want me to show how it is making us healthier or happier or anything?

YES! I think I explained it in a very understandable way in this post:

Ok, science is here to be useful for us, right? We use it to make pharmaceuticals (biology), machines (physics), substances used in products (chemistry) etc...

So when making a drug or curing a disease, it doesn't matter one tid bit if the scientist believes the Bible or Darwin. Evolution or creationism has no practical implication, so why is evolution even taught in science class when it is of philosophical importance only? It should be taught in philosphy class.

Comprende? (Do you understand?)

Don't try to turn this into an Creation vs Evolution debate, because its not.
I am asking you how your belief or disbelief in evolution matters at all for actually making stuff and inventing stuff. All the products we have before us (computer, toaster, microwave etc...) are the result of science, but none of them require belief in evolution to be made.

So the belief in evolution doesn't matter scientifically.

If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you to show that evolution in fact does matter practically in conducting science to make a new invention, practical impact. So name ONE.

Genetics is not one, first of all you need not believe in evolution to conduct genetics research, secondly it is not a product. You would have to say, e.g. the capability of growing hearts in a lab came about from genetics research, which could only be possible through an understanding of evolution (which is not true). The hearts would then be your example.

So, give me one example or admit defeat. or better yet, ask someone who might know.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think you are missing the point. There is no reason to cling to a clearly false belief in the face of evidence just because you can say that maybe it doesn't matter all that much that you are wrong. I have no idea what you want but I doubt you will accept it anyways.

I insist that the moon is made of cheese. I don't see the importance of saying that the moon is made of rock. How does that give us microwaves or cell phones or anything? It doesn't, does it?

 

[Homie]

I think you are missing the point. There is no reason to cling to a clearly false belief in the face of evidence just because you can say that maybe it doesn't matter all that much that you are wrong. I have no idea what you want but I doubt you will accept it anyways.

I insist that the moon is made of cheese. I don't see the importance of saying that the moon is made of rock. How does that give us microwaves or cell phones or anything? It doesn't, does it?

HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN ANY MORE CLEAR?

I think you are evading the question because you don't want to lose face. I am opening up a thread asking the question, maybe someone will be able to defend it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN ANY MORE CLEAR?

I think you are evading the question because you don't want to lose face. I am opening up a thread asking the question, maybe someone will be able to defend it.

I still don't know what you mean. If the theory of evolution itself is helping us? Theories mean nothing, it is their application. Find me a good Creationist geneticist before you brush off that example. I am not being evasive. You want me to show how exactly evolution is helping us, besides the fact that it is true and helps explain our origins, I will find some more examples.

But now let's get back to the real issue of this thread, which is whether one can accept evolution and still be Christian. I have yet to see anyone who can convince me it is impossible; I don't see accepting every single word of the Bible as literal inerrant truth with no room for interpretation or symbolism or anything, as being the definition of Christianity.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

"Only in America"? There are no Christians outside of America who are Creationists? Do you have anything to back up that broad assertion?

It seems to be the only first world country where this is really an issue.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Evolution and Creation are two opposite end of the spectrum. The problem is that evolution is against all that God stands for. This is why anyone who calls themself a Christian should see where they really lie because you really cannot say that you are a Christian and believe in evolution because those two things are mutually exclusive.
http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1877/

I do hope that any Christian here has a look at that link to see what the message of evolution really is. It is not friendly to Christianity.

I'm sure 'feeling the love' right now! Its 'great' to know that you don't think I am a Christian.

Enough sarcasm from me...

I mean yeah, disagree with me, but let God be the judge on who goes to heaven or hell, okay?

 

[MamboJoel]

Yes : I only see these debates when I come to this forum. The issue is inexistent in Europe.
Anyway, science is about knowing, faith is about believing.

 

[Rad Chris]

Don't try to turn this into an Creation vs Evolution debate, because its not.
I am asking you how your belief or disbelief in evolution matters at all for actually making stuff and inventing stuff. All the products we have before us (computer, toaster, microwave etc...) are the result of science, but none of them require belief in evolution to be made.

So the belief in evolution doesn't matter scientifically.

If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you to show that evolution in fact does matter practically in conducting science to make a new invention, practical impact. So name ONE.

Watch the news
And this one is in the UK, dunno about elsewhere

So if your asking how evolution has practical applications then predicting how a new disease will change is a good example imo. We dont know how bird flu will change, thats what the debate is about atm, wether to spend millions of $$ on a vaccine that might not work. We can guess though, using evolution theory.

To coin a phrase, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution". One of the worst things about this whole debate is that most people dont even know what evolution IS, let alone how it applies to the world. Its not some evil consipiricy, its a method of describing the world that is central to all of biology.