How important is espionage?

[scothed]

I'm a long time player of Civ and BTS and I'm now pretty comfortable on Noble and am thinking of moving up a level. However, I have never really used the espionage aspect of the game at all. I've used a couple of spies here and there to explore the map, but I hardly ever take part in espionage missions. The fact that I can now win games on noble with relative ease, without using espionage, would tend to suggest that it can't be that important (on noble and below at least).

I would appreciate any comments about the importance of espionage...

Cheers

 

[futurehermit]

Espionage can be beneficial, but it is also possible to play successfully without it at all. It is most helpful imo at the highest skill levels where tech-stealing can be a viable way of keeping up with the AI. Probably the most beneficial use of espionage is bringing down enemy city defenses using spies. It is good to know how to use it, because some situations call for it, but imo you can get by without it.

 

[Sleepless]

Its great for destroying spaceship parts when you are behind in a space race. Recently discovered (used) that one for the first time.

Small problem that you get negatives for spies being caught. Think I got to -22 your spy was caught causing trouble. Needless to say that lead to a war.

Just to add if you build the EP buildings you shouldn't have to set the slider higher to EP points. I think its best to set them against one near opponent and at least you can always steal a few early techs if nothing else.

 

[Joshua368]

Like corporations it is powerful but completely optional, you can get by on the higher levels just fine without it, but it'll reward you if you put effort into using it properly.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Plus, it's just fun. There is great satisfaction in either running over someone with Curraisers + Spies without siege, or Mansa working hard to research biology, only for you to steal it that same turn, and trade it before he gets the chance. The dumb AI always wants to keep the monopoly techs, so you can exploit that.

 

[Bleys]

One of the things I like about Espionage is that its almost always really great or its mostly neutral, very rarely does it "suck" or hurt me.

As others have said though, it can be very powerful if leveraged properly. Just recently I discovered the "stream of spies" trick, to constantly take out the enemies single supply of a key resource, like Oil. Enough spies and you can keep it burnt to the ground, and if you get it in place early, you can have them all be -50% cost. Man, I did that to Cathy in a game last month, smiled ear to ear the whole time. She did that to me once, constantly pillaging my only Oil, a lame water source one. Anyone else do that? Hold grudges against individual AIs for very specific things they "did" to you in games? I still plan to let Shaka keep 1 city, surrounded by mine, til he BEGS for food!

Which is more annoying? The 5 dollar footlong song, or the free credit report song?

Oh, and the answer to this is "Thats why God invented the DVR!"

 

[ppciv4]

I need it desperately after Liberalism.
Every successful city revolt means one city for me.

IMO, the game is simply:
before Liberalism: GSc is everything.
after Liberalism: Espionage and draft.

 

[Earthling]

During almost all of the early game you can never touch the slider - just allocate EP's to the right AI. In fact, I think it's silly how some AI's will build up 1000s of points against each other in the BCs. The game would probably be a lot harder without that alone (generally cripples the warmongers, cause the ones like Gandhi are programmed not too anyway...) The AI doesn't know how to use it against you or anyone else (maybe if it gets enough the free sight into cities helps it in wars...but I doubt it). Later in the game it's good to build the multiplier buildings in your top commerce cities, and you can use it as has been mentioned for city revolts in war or sabotaging spaceship parts. Many missions are worthless though, like poison water/steal gold or (usually) spread culture (also running defense mission, unless you see like your one oil get sabotaged as can happen).

 

[Tephros]

I think going from being totally ineffective to very effective in espionage would allow you to go up a difficulty level. Like almost anything in the game you can get by without it, but it's not optimal. For example, you can not have a clue about GP farms or managing GPP and still get by with a different strategy, but you would be much better if you were able to. Espionage became much more attractive to me due to barbarian problems on immortal making me want to build the Great Wall often.

 

[UWHabs]

I've never really learnt too much what to do with it, but seeing the power of mad's EE game, and seeing my games where I played with "no espionage" and getting to the point where I was like, "you know, if only I had never turned off espionage, this game would be over in half the time," I'm now of the opinion that it's something that I should learn more of, and utilize. Especially if you're lucky enough to get an early GSpy, then definitely it's something you can actively use to give you a boost early on (even if only to steal 5-6 crappy techs from a neighbour).

 

[Cashew]

Since it does have a lot of practical utility and is a lot of fun to use I suggest you learn a lot about espionage. You should know though, as with anything in civ, if you try to half ass it you'll get less than average results. Usually when I'm going for an espionage economy i sacrifice all other specialists and buildings for espionage ones given the choice.

 

[Ibian]

Yeah but, spy points means less beakers. Over long enough time it might turn into more beakers than you could otherwise have gotten, if you are behind an AI who is also close enough to walk to, but early beakers matters more than late beakers. At least, thats the mantra i see preached all the time.

Now, sure, you could just focus on hammering out a mounted army and not care about research once you reach whatever marker you decided on, but that late in the game my entire empire except for one city will be covered in cottages and i can just buy an army big enough to crush anything in my way in a matter of ~15 turns. Could be a matter of taste i suppose.

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah but, spy points means less beakers. Over long enough time it might turn into more beakers than you could otherwise have gotten, if you are behind an AI who is also close enough to walk to, but early beakers matters more than late beakers. At least, thats the mantra i see preached all the time.

Now, sure, you could just focus on hammering out a mounted army and not care about research once you reach whatever marker you decided on, but that late in the game my entire empire except for one city will be covered in cottages and i can just buy an army big enough to crush anything in my way in a matter of ~15 turns. Could be a matter of taste i suppose.

Ibian, do you go 100% on the slider while you rush buy? If so, how many turns will you drop the slider down for?

 

[Ibian]

With 100% gold multipliers in every city the position of the slider doesnt matter. I have it wherever it needs to be to pay the expenses. When raising an army then, yes, its at 100% gold, for however long i need until i am satisfied with the size of my army.

 

[Yesod]

Look at Mad Scientist's games. Espionage can be more powerful than other economies depending how you run it. I played a game where I settled 8 Great Spies in my capital. All I lost was the ability to bulb techs and was able to steal more than I could bulb anyhow. In the industrial age I had 1500 EP/turn. With the Espionage slider at 0. Since they're worth more than beakers after discounts, I could steal techs nearly as fast as I could research them.

 

[UWHabs]

Look at Mad Scientist's games. Espionage can be more powerful than other economies depending how you run it. I played a game where I settled 8 Great Spies in my capital. All I lost was the ability to bulb techs and was able to steal more than I could bulb anyhow. In the industrial age I had 1500 EP/turn. With the Espionage slider at 0. Since they're worth more than beakers after discounts, I could steal techs nearly as fast as I could research them.

The only real downside is that you can't get to a tech first. So it won't work for stuff like the free tech from Liberalism, or the free great people from physics and such, but otherwise, it can be powerful.

 

[Crusher1]

Since they're worth more than beakers after discounts, I could steal techs nearly as fast as I could research them.

And there's the problem. Even at immortal and up it's not difficult to out tech the AI so why not use a strategy that lets you be the driver instead of sitting in the back seat. The new features in bts are nice additions but they also seem to slow down the AIs research on all levels, almost confusing them with so many options which would make me want to stay away from a heavy espionage strategy.

Espionage can be useful for sabotaging Space parts but aside from that I never do much with it because I think there are many other useful tools out there at your disposal. Basically I'd rather put my energy and resources as far away from espionage in most cases.

 

[Tephros]

And there's the problem. Even at immortal and up it's not difficult to out tech the AI so why not use a strategy that lets you be the driver instead of sitting in the back seat. The new features in bts are nice additions but they also seem to slow down the AIs research on all levels, almost confusing them with so many options which would make me want to stay away from a heavy espionage strategy.

Espionage can be useful for sabotaging Space parts but aside from that I never do much with it because I think there are many other useful tools out there at your disposal. Basically I'd rather put my energy and resources as far away from espionage in most cases.

It's not absolutely necessary to go all-out espionage in order for it to be useful. I can still steal techs without touching the espionage slider at all. If you choose your target early and appropriately the +4 from the capital will add up, then a settled spy allows you to steal more expensive techs without touching the slider, and then you can have your espionage slider at whatever level is appropriate depending upon who's researching what, bearing in mind that you'll get a lot more out of it with SY. If you're doing well in tech then you can go deeper into a particular tree while backfilling with a combination of trading and stealing. This is greatly facilitated by espionage.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Yes make a hard bee-line and steal any vital techs that you have to skip because of the beeline.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

Yes make a hard bee-line and steal any vital techs that you have to skip because of the beeline.

This is the key. It allows you to back fill for for divine right without trading rifling.