How is Alexander the great viewed in the West?

Most people have no idea about this sort of thing. I remember about ten years ago a friend of mine was playing an RTS game that was set, I think, in the Trojan Wars, and Alexander the Great was a unit you could field. Even worse, my friend was under the impression that Achilles was a philosopher. And he was doing a PhD. So I doubt many people have much of a view of Alexander the Great at all, although they will probably have heard the name.
A PhD in what?
People mistake him as Greek when he was actually Macedonian
It's a shame that you and the other people on CFCWH fell for your own troll. Not only was christos an embarrassingly easy target (like taking shots at Isiah Thomas, Flavor Flav, or the 2011 Indianapolis Colts) the lot of you had to fabricate things to make him look bad. Disgraceful.
 
It's a shame that you and the other people on CFCWH fell for your own troll. Not only was christos an embarrassingly easy target (like taking shots at Isiah Thomas, Flavor Flav, or the 2011 Indianapolis Colts) the lot of you had to fabricate things to make him look bad. Disgraceful.

:thumbsup:

Christos appears to be a decent person, maybe he was seen as more patriotic just because he was talking to foreigners, as usually happens with greek people :)
 
I hope Leoreth does not see this thread and have a heart-attack :D
Oh, don't worry, the medics have left again already :D

Seriously though, I don't have anything against Alexander at all, I just don't like it when people refer to historical figures that have absolutely nothing to do with current events (hence my reaction to you bringing him up some days ago in the OT).

That said, I think Greece has a lot more to offer than Alexander when you're talking about (admittedly arbitrarily measured) "the greatest Greeks". In my opinion political or military leaders shouldn't show up at high ranks in these polls anyway. There's at least half a dozen Greek philosophers I'd rank higher than him, for example.

On the other hand, it's Alexander the Great after all, so I guess he belongs there too.
 
:thumbsup:

Christos appears to be a decent person, maybe he was seen as more patriotic just because he was talking to foreigners, as usually happens with greek people :)
I don't know about all that. It is fun to make fun of Europeans who are all starry-eyed about their country's past history. But you shouldn't need to make crap up to have to do it.
 
It's a shame that you and the other people on CFCWH fell for your own troll. Not only was christos an embarrassingly easy target (like taking shots at Isiah Thomas, Flavor Flav, or the 2011 Indianapolis Colts) the lot of you had to fabricate things to make him look bad. Disgraceful.

But you don't think anyone would take that seriously, do you?
 
For the record, I didn't know that he conquered any of India. I always thought he reached the border and stopped (under his army's/armies' pprotests).
 
But you don't think anyone would take that seriously, do you?
Since 75% of WH is going around saying that the ancient Makedonians and the ancient Greeks were two completely different things, I'd say people are taking it seriously.
 
What exactly were we fabricating? I think it's accurate to say that Macedon was a Hellenized nation not part of Greece proper. They've been considered separate entities for most of their existence, while Philip and Alexander were considered foreigners by the Greeks themselves.
 
What exactly were we fabricating? I think it's accurate to say that Macedon was a Hellenized nation not part of Greece proper. They've been considered separate entities for most of their existence, while Philip and Alexander were considered foreigners by the Greeks themselves.
Thing 1: There was basically no solid definition of "Greek" except for "dudes who speak Greek" in the exact meaning of the word barbaroi. Alex and Phil spoke Greek. You'd think that that'd involve a "Q.E.D." or something. It's not like they had to pick up a passport from the post office or something. But they had the next closest thing:

Thing 2: The Argeades' founding identity centered around the presumption of direct descent from people who spoke Greek. This does not typically define ethnicity in the strictest sense, but it was enough of an argument to get the only thing close to a panhellenic institution, the Olympian games, to admit Alex and Phil: regardless of differences between the supposed "original" Makedonians and Greeks, the royal family was basically as Greek as it gets. This seems relevant. Both of these Things, incidentally, are widely known and should have stopped pretty much any argument. There wasn't a very firm "Greek" identity, but insofar as there was, it had two meaningful criteria and both Alex and Phil fit both of them. Moving on.

Thing 3: Typically, grousing about Greek-Mak differences is overblown. Maybe 75% of that comes from the accounts of the life of Eumenes of Kardia, noted Thracian Greek notable, member of the Makedonian aristocracy, and Alex's secretary. Eumenes' favorite card to play in his speeches, per Hieronymos (also an inhabitant of Kardia), was how he was a Greek, not like the soldiers he led or the generals he fought or the king he had served before his "untimely" death. Surprisingly (hur dur) this did not impact his ability to actually motivate these men and retain their loyalty - arguably, his urMesogaian Mak opponents had more such issues (e.g. Antigonos). The conclusion of most of the modern accounts of Eumenes' career is that he played it up for rhetorical effect, not because it was actually indicative of meaningful ethnic differences.

Thing 4: Furthermore, the accounts of Eumenes' speeches themselves blow most claims of a separate Makedonian language unrelated to (and unintelligible with) Greek out of the water - the remaining 25% comes out of a famous scene during the conquest of Iran, when Alexander convenes a trial which is supposed to be conducted wholly in the "Makedonian language" but in which only Greek words are actually mentioned. Not exactly good ammunition, there. Was there an ancient Makedonian language that was unrelated to Greek? Maybe, but if it existed there's basically no trace of it by the fourth century BC, and even if it did it certainly doesn't impact the supposed Greekness of Alex or Phil. Even if we go with the most extreme potential reading, that the Maks were basically a completely foreign people who wandered in around 900 BC or so (hell, let's make them Slavs for kicks and giggles) and who ended up speaking Greek by the fourth century, how does that make them any different from supposed Greeks like every Dorian ever? Are we going to decide that the Spartans weren't Greek either?
 
I spend all day speaking to people on the phone, and one of the questions I have to ask is their nationality. I'd say about 60% of the answers are either someone's ethnicity, skin colour or religion. I've had disagreements with people who were convinced their nationality was Caribbean or white. At one point I was quite close to saying "OK so point out to me on a map where the country of white is!".

So I think we're asking a bit much to try and ascribe Alexander as belonging to a modern day nation when most modern people have enough trouble grasping the concept. Ethnicity is another matter, but even that can get a bit murky and by and large depends on what the individual feels. I've had discussions with Irish Americans who turned out to be several generations less Irish than I am, and I don't describe myself as anything more than British.

That said I've always thought of him as Greek as much as anything else, (by and large for the reasons Dachs outlined) a damn good general and an interesting character, but I was swayed at an early age by TV programmes on him such as the excellent Michael Wood series.
 
A PhD in what?

Genetics. Obviously nothing to do with history. But the point was that he was an educated and intelligent sort of person, who one might hope would have a fair bit of generalist knowledge.
 
Alexander was one of the greatest FYROM military commanders the world has ever seen

:sarcasm:

I agree.

In reality alexander the great is a slav who came in the 6th century A.D, he took over the byzantine empire and created the macedonian dynasty.

But some greek and iranian nationalists say lies and propaganda that alexander the great lived in ancient times, was greek and took over persia.

The reality has been revealed.

What is next? George Washigton is in reality indian? The mongols are chinese? Gengis khan was FYROMian? Germans are in reality turks? ( how to you explain that many turks are in germany) The normans never invaded england?

Oh my god. History is revealed.
 
Thing 1: There was basically no solid definition of "Greek" except for "dudes who speak Greek" in the exact meaning of the word barbaroi. Alex and Phil spoke Greek. You'd think that that'd involve a "Q.E.D." or something. It's not like they had to pick up a passport from the post office or something. But they had the next closest thing:

I dispute nothing of points #2-4, but I'd like to probe this a little further. I think that the Greeks recognized that there was something further to "being Greek" than the language. For example: Phokion the Athenian sent his son to live in Sparta in order to give him a more austere lifestyle. The same person also referred to Alexander's imminent attack on Thebes as being a "holocaust on our borders." What is "our borders"? He was talking to the Athenians during the time of the Theban hegemony.

I'm not insinuating that Greek nationalism existed in the 4th century B.C., but there was some sense of "Greekness" that transcended the language.
 
I dispute nothing of points #2-4, but I'd like to probe this a little further. I think that the Greeks recognized that there was something further to "being Greek" than the language. For example: Phokion the Athenian sent his son to live in Sparta in order to give him a more austere lifestyle. The same person also referred to Alexander's imminent attack on Thebes as being a "holocaust on our borders." What is "our borders"? He was talking to the Athenians during the time of the Theban hegemony.

I'm not insinuating that Greek nationalism existed in the 4th century B.C., but there was some sense of "Greekness" that transcended the language.
"Our"? I would tend to disagree with the notion that "our" refers to anything involving the boundaries of a perceived "Greece", because Thebes was far from that periphery - Thessalians, Aitolians, Epeirotes, the Thracian colonies. Since Thebes was pretty much next to the borders of Attika itself (hell, it's a day's run from the Kerameikos), it seems more reasonable to me to assume there that he is referring to Attika as "we". Alternatively, he may be referring to the formal allies that had been ranged against Phil at Chaironeia as "we".
 
If Alexander the great isnt greek because he fought Athens then the spartans arent greeks.
 
As far as I see it, there are two options:

None of them are Greek. Since Greece was not unified (goodness the Spartans and Athenians didn't consider the Pelopennesian War a civil war), none of them can truly be Greek.

Alternately (and, IMO, more reasonably), we can group them by language and culture. The Saal and the Itza certainly weren't the same nation, but we call both groups Mayan. In this sense, all of the City-States/Kingdoms are Greek, including Alexander's Macedonia.
 
I agree with the second option.
 
None of them are Greek. Since Greece was not unified (goodness the Spartans and Athenians didn't consider the Pelopennesian War a civil war), none of them can truly be Greek.
That seems pretty silly. By that definition, for instance, Kurds don't exist, nor do Catalans. Ethnicity and possession of statehood are two different things, and Greek identity has always been "layered" with other elements of ethnicity into the bargain.
 
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