How powerful is Satan?

[frob2900]

Some could be wrong in their particular interpretation of the scripture; however, the point remains, the basics of the religion are pretty much the same along all those denominations....if they all believe in the divinity of Christ and declare him as their lord and savior and believe the bible to be the word of God, and dont act contrary to that.....then I have no problem with them being labeled christian.

So all it takes to "not have your heart hardened by Satan" is to state that Christ is divine? Which version of the bible should be followed? (e.g. the Jehovas Witnesses bible has some differences to the King James etc.)

Again, there is more to being a christian than just self-labeling yourself. I could call myself a black man, and yet it would be obvious to you I am not. You cant call yourself a christian and then go around murdering people. Its contrary to the word. Now, christians can and do sin....they are not perfect by any means...the difference is they are supposed to resist that sin and not embrace it.

So there's more to it than declaring the divinity of Christ? It carries with it a moral system? Who decides how to interpret the morals in the bible? (beyond the obvious stuff like "don't murder", for which the bible isn't necessary in the first place)

He would still be held accountable by God for the things he did that were contrary to Gods will.

No he wouldn't. Anymore than bad kids aren't held responsible by Father Christmas. But the point was that is he (the crazy Christian person) "a Christian" by your standards, if he truly believes that he is (and truly accepts Jesus as Savior) and thinks all his crazy acts conform to his interpretation of the bible.

 

[puglover]

Well said, Mobboss.

So all it takes to "not have your heart hardened by Satan" is to state that Christ is divine? Which version of the bible should be followed? (e.g. the Jehovas Witnesses bible has some differences to the King James etc.)

What do Bible translations have to do with anything just said?

So there's more to it than declaring the divinity of Christ? It carries with it a moral system? Who decides how to interpret the morals in the bible? (beyond the obvious stuff like "don't murder", for which the bible isn't necessary in the first place)

No he wouldn't. Anymore than bad kids aren't held responsible by Father Christmas. But the point was that is he (the crazy Christian person) "a Christian" by your standards, if he truly believes that he is (and truly accepts Jesus as Savior) and thinks all his crazy acts conform to his interpretation of the bible.

Remember that God doesn't just judge actions. It really isn't what matters. When the prophet was to choose the king of Israel, God said himself that he sees the heart, not the outward actions and appearance. Does the fanatic do what he does because he truly wants to serve God, or is he just trying to make himself "holy" at the expense of everyone else around him?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, frob, I should point out that repeating that you don't think you will be held accountable by an entity in which you don't believe isn't necessarily useful. If such a being exists, you will regardless of your belief in said being, and those who believe in said being will think you will whether you will or won't or think you will or won't. Clear?

 

[drachasor]

Well, frob, I should point out that repeating that you don't think you will be held accountable by an entity in which you don't believe isn't necessarily useful. If such a being exists, you will regardless of your belief in said being, and those who believe in said being will think you will whether you will or won't or think you will or won't. Clear?

That's certainly true. My personal opinion is that if I happen to be wrong and some sort of god (not necessarily Christian) does exist, then he isn't going to care whether people believe in him or not. A just entity would only care about the kind of person (good/bad, etc) you are, and perhaps about reforming bad people. If your god does exist and sends me to hell, then he's a massively evil being and I wouldn't support him even if I knew he existed.

-Drachasor

 

[frob2900]

What do Bible translations have to do with anything just said?

Nothing. Interpretations do, though. The point is that there is more than just one type of Christians. There have been many wars fought between "true Christians" and "false Christians", so at least someone must have thought that interpretation was important.

Remember that God doesn't just judge actions. It really isn't what matters. When the prophet was to choose the king of Israel, God said himself that he sees the heart, not the outward actions and appearance. Does the fanatic do what he does because he truly wants to serve God, or is he just trying to make himself "holy" at the expense of everyone else around him?

Well, God doesn't judge anything, since God doesn't exist, and so the definition of "Christian" must be left to us mere mortals, unfortunately.

So, what about a crazy person who really, truly in his heart thought that he was doing God's work (according to the crazy persons intepretation/translation of the bible). Does God judge that person as a "Christian" despite the fact that the crazy person might "outwardly" be doing really horrible acts.

Well, frob, I should point out that repeating that you don't think you will be held accountable by an entity in which you don't believe isn't necessarily useful. If such a being exists, you will regardless of your belief in said being, and those who believe in said being will think you will whether you will or won't or think you will or won't. Clear?

Well, yes, the whole "belief as afterlife-insurance" seems like a pretty pointless argument. What if the "real God" thinks that being a Christian is really, really bad? Then a Christian would have placed his bets catastrophically wrong anyway. Since there is no way of accurately predicting if there is a god and what said gods "rules of conduct" are, the whole thing isn't worth betting on in the first place.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, yes, the whole "belief as afterlife-insurance" seems like a pretty pointless argument. What if the "real God" thinks that being a Christian is really, really bad? Then a Christian would have placed his bets catastrophically wrong anyway. Since there is no way of accurately predicting if there is a god and what said gods "rules of conduct" are, the whole thing isn't worth betting on in the first place.

That wasn't my point. I am just saying that although you are completely convinced that God doesn't exist and thus will not judge you for lack of belief, and although you may be correct in this matter, the fact is that this opinion is irrelevant in the mind of a believer. I will not criticize you for what you do or don't believe, but I am as convinced that you will ultimately be judged by God even though you don't believe in the concept, as you are that you won't (or that I won't even though I believe). My reasons for belief are not "after-life insurance" as the odds of my being right, if I set aside all specific reasons I have for belief, and just look at the multiplicity of views there are, are not great.

 

[frob2900]

That wasn't my point. I am just saying that although you are completely convinced that God doesn't exist and thus will not judge you for lack of belief

Correction: I'm completely unconvinced that God exists. There's a difference.

and although you may be correct in this matter, the fact is that this opinion is irrelevant in the mind of a believer.

Well, that's unreasonable.

I will not criticize you for what you do or don't believe, but I am as convinced that you will ultimately be judged by God even though you don't believe in the concept, as you are that you won't (or that I won't even though I believe).

Again, I'm "completely unconvinced that I will be judged". Not "completely convinced that I won't be judged".

My reasons for belief are not "after-life insurance" as the odds of my being right, if I set aside all specific reasons I have for belief, and just look at the multiplicity of views there are, are not great.

Ok, fair enough. What are your reasons?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

My reasons? Because God told me He exists.

 

[MobBoss]

So all it takes to "not have your heart hardened by Satan" is to state that Christ is divine?

No..because even Satan and the demons know this to be true, yet they dont follow Christ. Again, is he your lord and savior?

Which version of the bible should be followed? (e.g. the Jehovas Witnesses bible has some differences to the King James etc.)

If I am doing biblical research, I prefer the New King James because I think it most accurately translates from the original hebrew and greek.

So there's more to it than declaring the divinity of Christ? It carries with it a moral system? Who decides how to interpret the morals in the bible? (beyond the obvious stuff like "don't murder", for which the bible isn't necessary in the first place)

Personally, I think they are self evident just by reading them. Again, denominations dont necessarily argue over the major points.

Well, God doesn't judge anything, since God doesn't exist

If this is what you believe, then what is the point of this discussion?

Correction: I'm completely unconvinced that God exists. There's a difference.

My earlier point entirely....your heart has been hardened and calloused to the point where you dont believe God exists.

 

[frob2900]

No..because even Satan and the demons know this to be true, yet they dont follow Christ. Again, is he your lord and savior?

Well, what about a crazy murderer/criminal person, who is utterly convinced that Jesus is Lord and Saviour. I mean truly, honestly, convinced. Is that person a "Christian"?

If I am doing biblical research, I prefer the New King James because I think it most accurately translates from the original hebrew and greek.

You "think" it's more accurate, or you "believe" its more accurate?

Personally, I think they are self evident just by reading them. Again, denominations dont necessarily argue over the major points.

The major point being the divinity of Christ?

If this is what you believe, then what is the point of this discussion?

The point of the discussion is that your statement about Satan hardening the hearts of everyone but Christians is an ill-defined statement (due to the ill-definedness of "Christian").

My reasons? Because God told me He exists.

You heard the Voice of God?



[EDIT]

My earlier point entirely....your heart has been hardened and calloused to the point where you dont believe God exists.

Well, I've never believed in God, so it's certainly not a continuous process. Can Satan begin the heart-hardening process even before we are born?

 

[MobBoss]

Well, what about a crazy murderer/criminal person, who is utterly convinced that Jesus is Lord and Saviour. I mean truly, honestly, convinced. Is that person a "Christian"?

Again...crazy murderer and christian are rather mutually exclusive dont you think? How can one be one and the other? Like I pointed out earlier, I can say I am a black man all day long, but it wont make my skin any darker.

The point is, if someone TRULY has given their heart over to Jesus totally, they will neither be a murderer or a criminal. The possibility of even doing such acts would never be considered.

You "think" it's more accurate, or you "believe" its more accurate?

Well, since I have done more than my fair share of root word translations with various concordances, I will go with 'think' with the possiblity that I 'know' it is. NKJ is the version that most biblical researchers that I have read use in their research as their 'standard'.

The major point being the divinity of Christ?

Thats just one of the major points.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I thought that other religions apart from Christianity have belief in Satan too but do not believe that Christ is divine so how can it be known that Satan considers Jesus to be divine?

I consider the existence of God (and Satan) to be undecidable myself (in fact, I think I proved this in some other thread here, based off other peoples arguments of course ). That doesn't stop me not believing in either though.

 

[MobBoss]

I thought that other religions apart from Christianity have belief in Satan too but do not believe that Christ is divine so how can it be known that Satan considers Jesus to be divine?

The bible mentions this.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

But the Bible (well NT) is a little biased is it not in respect to Christ's divinity?

 

[frob2900]

Again...crazy murderer and christian are rather mutually exclusive dont you think? How can one be one and the other? Like I pointed out earlier, I can say I am a black man all day long, but it wont make my skin any darker.

The point is, if someone TRULY has given their heart over to Jesus totally, they will neither be a murderer or a criminal. The possibility of even doing such acts would never be considered.

Well, that depends on your particular definition of "Christian", doesn't it. What if the intent of said person is actually, honestly to "serve God" and they truly feel like they've given themselves to God, yet due to catastrophic misinterpretation they end up doing bad things.

Basically I'm asking, is it the intent or the actions of a person that makes them a Christian? If it is both, then "accepting Jesus as Savior" is not sufficient, like you stated earlier.

Well, since I have done more than my fair share of root word translations with various concordances, I will go with 'think' with the possiblity that I 'know' it is. NKJ is the version that most biblical researchers that I have read use in their research as their 'standard'.

Well, I'm sure there are many Christians who would disagree with you.

How bad can a translation be before it ceases to be "the word of God"?

 

[MobBoss]

But the Bible (well NT) is a little biased is it not in respect to Christ's divinity?

Biased? Rofl. It is prophised of at least three times in the OT and refers to it constantly in the NT. Its not biased....it confirms it outright over and over again.

 

[MobBoss]

Well, that depends on your particular definition of "Christian", doesn't it. What if the intent of said person is actually, honestly to "serve God" and they truly feel like they've given themselves to God, yet due to catastrophic misinterpretation they end up doing bad things.

What part of 'thou shalt not murder' or 'thou shalt not steal' is up for catastrophic misinterpretation?

I mean really stop grasping at straws here. Its about time you moved on if this is the crux of your premise.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

But Juadaism doesn't believe that Jesus is divine and yet the OT is holy to them. I don't know their views on Satan however. This suggests that multiple interpretatios of prophecies exist.

Islam definitely believes in Satan but does not believe in Christ's divinity, he is merely an important prophet of God as far as my understanding of Islam goes.

Maybe bias was the wrong word to use but the NT is certainly promoting one view of Christ's divinty which is disputed by many.

 

[frob2900]

What part of 'thou shalt not murder' or 'thou shalt not steal' is up for catastrophic misinterpretation?

I mean really stop grasping at straws here. Its about time you moved on if this is the crux of your premise.

It's specifically "thou shalt not murder", not "thou shalt not kill"?

Hmm.. it seems to be Thou Shalt Not Kill. So as a Christian one should avoid killing at all costs and under all circumstances?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Hmm.. it seems to be Thou Shalt Not Kill. So as a Christian one should avoid killing at all costs and under all circumstances?

I went through this last year in another thread. I repost my conversation with Israelite9191 from then:

(21:39:31) Erik Mesoy: Excuse me. Do you have a moment to spare for a stupid argument?
(21:39:47) Stignatiusjew: Not really, but alright.
(21:40:11) Erik Mesoy: Narz started a thread in OT which essentially is an argument over whether the commandment should be translated as "Thou shall not kill" or "...murder". Do you have a good authority on this?
(21:40:36) Stignatiusjew: The Hebrew is properly translated as murder. Case closed.
(21:40:49) Erik Mesoy: Thank you.
(21:40:49) Stignatiusjew: Every rabbi for millenia has said this.
(21:40:55) Stignatiusjew: No problem.

(Bold mine)

Also, I'll link it again - some of this stuff really should move to Ask a Christian.