How powerful is Satan?

[Erik Mesoy]

@frob2900: I suggest you read The Great Divorce for an introduction to how good and evil must be divided; and I don't see where Elrohir divided people into good and evil.

It seems one can be neutral, then, no? A balance of serving my own desires and yet contributing to the greater good at the same time?

In the short run, ie. while alive, I suppose so. (And you plan to live forever. ) In the long run, ie. when you die, it comes down to roughly this: "You have sinned, which good God cannot stand. Will you accept the forgiveness brought by Jesus' death to wash away your sin?" or any of a number of equivalents.

 

[frob2900]

@frob2900: I suggest you read The Great Divorce for an introduction to how good and evil must be divided; and I don't see where Elrohir divided people into good and evil.

I wasn't discussing what Elrohir had done, I was discussing an earlier comment by MobBoss. Anyway, it's completely irrelevant since I'm not arguing against them in particular, I'm arguing against the idea that somehow all people are either "Christians" (which is a completely subjective term, since anyone can declare anyone else a "false christian") or "have their hearts hardened by Satan".

I have absolutely no interest in reading about the inane idea of how the world/universe is divided into "good" or "evil", especially not if the book is written by C.S. Lewis, an author I have very little respect for. The idea is just too arbitrary and subjective (since one persons definition of good/evil can differ immensely from another persons) to give any serious consideration.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

How much CS Lewis have you read, by the way? The book in question doesn't divide people up into good and evil, it explains the concept.

 

[frob2900]

The book in question doesn't divide people up into good and evil, it explains the concept.

The concept is inane.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

"Christians" (which is a completely subjective term, since anyone can declare anyone else a "false christian")

I declare you to be a hermaphrodite!

Did "gender" now become a completely subjective term? I think not.

I have absolutely no interest in reading about the inane idea of how the world/universe is divided into "good" or "evil",

Even though you already admitted that a minority of acts were purely good or evil, and by inference more acts are somewhat good or evil? What is it you're espousing, moral spectrumism? And writing off opposing sources as "inane" is unhelpful in an argument; I might as well write off you for being a moral relativist whose opinions on good and evil are not worth reading.

The idea is just too arbitrary and subjective (since one persons definition of good/evil can differ immensely from another persons) to give any serious consideration.

Yeah, it can differ immensely. In practice, it doesn't really. People agree on the large things. I refer you to this compilation:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition4.htm

 

[frob2900]

I declare you to be a hermaphrodite!

Did "gender" now become a completely subjective term? I think not.

Not the same thing at all. You must be confused, since the concept of "being a christian" is much more complex than gender. Simply defining it as "believing in God" obviously won't work etc. etc.

Even though you already admitted that a minority of acts were purely good or evil, and by inference more acts are somewhat good or evil? What is it you're espousing, moral spectrumism?

Moral spectrumism? Oh dear. Look, people do things for many reasons. Some people are destructive and do things that harm everyone. Some people do things that only harm some people. etc.

Debating what of these things are "good" or "evil" is not really helpful. It's been done for thousands of years and AFAIK hasn't done any specific good to improve the state of things. In fact, people calling themselves "good" and other people "evil", is a surefire sign that things are about to get bad.

And writing off opposing sources as "inane" is unhelpful in an argument; I might as well write off you for being a moral relativist whose opinions on good and evil are not worth reading.

I'm not writing of anything. I was giving my subjective opinion. Just like "good" or "evil", the words "profound" and "inane" are also subjective. My statement wasn't so much argument as it was a statement that I won't read that book. I have better things to do with my time.

Yeah, it can differ immensely. In practice, it doesn't really. People agree on the large things. I refer you to this compilation:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition4.htm

Well, obviously people will have some similarities in their morality! Is this news? We are the same species, after all.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

one persons definition of good/evil can differ immensely from another persons

Well, obviously people will have some similarities in their morality!

My statement wasn't so much argument as it was a statement that I won't read that book. I have better things to do with my time.

This isn't so much an argument as it's a statement that I won't read your posts (because they are overwhelmingly noncomittal where not contradictory). I have better things to do with my time. Also, we've gone off topic.

 

[frob2900]

This isn't so much an argument as it's a statement that I won't read your posts (because they are overwhelmingly noncomittal where not contradictory). I have better things to do with my time. Also, we've gone off topic.

Disagree, but fair enough.

 

[MobBoss]

Not the same thing at all. You must be confused, since the concept of "being a christian" is much more complex than gender. Simply defining it as "believing in God" obviously won't work etc. etc.

Its not complex. You either proclaim Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and believe in his ways.....or you dont. Pretty simple actually.

 

[frob2900]

Its not complex. You either proclaim Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and believe in his ways.....or you dont. Pretty simple actually.

So all Christian denominations (protestant, orthodox, catholic, mormon, jehovas witnesses etc.) are "Christians" in your sense, and don't have "their hearts hardened by Satan"?

What about someone who proclaimed Jesus Christ his Lord and Savior but interpreted his ways differently and did stuff you don't agree with? Is that person still a christian?

What if a crazy person honestly accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but did really crazy things in Jesus name (and honestly thought he was doing Gods work).

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Note: Ask a Christian has been bumped for the OT conversation here.

Who is the battle between, and what is it a battle over?

Let's get back to this.

Love and greed. It's a battle for the service of all mankind. Does a man choose to sacrifice himself for the greater good, or serve only his own desires?

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. Let's see if I can expand it a bit more wrt Satan's role.

The battle is between, on the overarching level, Good and Evil.
Good is that which sets free, that which offers itself for the sake of others, that which has love and fellow-feeling/sympathy/etc, and that which forgives to make room for a new life. Good is represented by those who do the above and call other people to do so.
Evil is that which enslaves, that which harms others for its own benefit, that which does not prefer that another person be happy to that he be sad. Evil is represented by Satan and everyone he influences to do evil.

What Satan does is to disguise evil and make good seem unfeasible. E.g. "You'd die if you gave away all your possessions to the poor, and you'd be no help to anyone then, and they'd waste it. No point in doing that." accompanied by "You have to look out for yourself. It's a dangerous world filled with evil. Better make sure you're in a position of strength." and the like. I could go on for pages, I'm sure.

The battle is, as puglover says, for the service of mankind, ie for their immortal souls. Satan is weaker than God, so cannot attempt to win humans either by force or by giving them a better deal. In the manner described above, he tries to convince people to reject God of their own free will, something God allowed humans to have when He created us in His image as so that we would be creations of inherent worth rather than toys.
God says: "You have sinned. I cannot stand sin. Let me send my Son to wash away your sin." This has the qualities described of Good above - offering for the sake of others (this derails into a discussion of the Trinity), setting free from sin, forgiveness.
Satan says either this: "You're not good enough. You couldn't stand it. You've sinned so much, you'd die if you went near God. You don't belong in Heaven." (IMO, here's a case of this.) That's one extreme.
Or this: "You've done more good things than bad things. You shouldn't need Jesus, and he doesn't exist anyway. That's for pathetic, weak people. If God exists, surely he'll let you into Heaven on your own merit." That's the other extreme.

 

[El_Machinae]

Thanks Erik: I'll give your post a proper analysis in a bit.

in islam satan is said to tempt people into doing bad things by whispering in there ears, altough there is moe than one devil in islam i think with satan being the biggest and baddest

Are we able to tell Satan's whispers from our own thoughts?

 

[El_Machinae]

In the short run, ie. while alive, I suppose so. (And you plan to live forever. ) In the long run, ie. when you die, it comes down to roughly this: "You have sinned, which good God cannot stand. Will you accept the forgiveness brought by Jesus' death to wash away your sin?" or any of a number of equivalents.

It'll be easier to decide if I visit God (proving He exists!) and get to chat with Him about various issues I have.

Did "gender" now become a completely subjective term? I think not.

It's more subjective than people realise, though! People like to be binary wrt gender (declaring people 'male' or 'female') but in truth, different parts of the body have gender and it's only 'usually' that different parts match the gender of the rest.

 

[puglover]

It seems one can be neutral, then, no? A balance of serving my own desires and yet contributing to the greater good at the same time?

But you have to remember that humans are inclined to evil through a sin nature, so there really is no such thing as "neutral," just a "lesser evil."

That's not to say all self-motivated acts are wrong, or of Satan. But when someone serves himself at the expense of others, he is sinning.

 

[frob2900]

But you have to remember that humans are inclined to evil through a sin nature, so there really is no such thing as "neutral," just a "lesser evil.

I don't believe human beings are inclined to sin at all. Human beings, on average, are inclined to behave in a way that gives them an evolutionary advantage.

Such behaviour sometimes harms other human beings, but saying it is "caused by Satan", is a huge copout that gives us no idea how to handle/modify/contain those impulses successfully. It is a dead-end theory.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

It'll be easier to decide if I visit God (proving He exists!) and get to chat with Him about various issues I have.

I think I speculated on something regarding this in the Harrowing of Hell thread. You may want to look it up.

It's more subjective than people realise, though! People like to be binary wrt gender (declaring people 'male' or 'female') but in truth, different parts of the body have gender and it's only 'usually' that different parts match the gender of the rest.

I know perfectly well that it's subjective, having hung around the El Goonish Shive community. (It's a webcomic where the first major story arc involves a male main character being turned into a woman, then the attempt to change him back results in one male and one female version.) I've never seen a larger gathering of, well, transsexuals, post-modification transmen and transwomen, people who refused to commit to a gender identity, people with gender disassociativity disorder, roughly "bisexual" people who weren't attracted to genders but to types of people, and a number of other types.

However, "gender" is still a useful term that's applicable and non-vague in a majority of cases, as is "Christian".
(Oh great, now I'm getting off-topic again...)

 

[puglover]

I don't believe human beings are inclined to sin at all. Human beings, on average, are inclined to behave in a way that gives them an evolutionary advantage.

Not inclined to sin? Take away all factors keeping a man's selfishness in check (government, family, religion, etc.) and watch how he behaves. There is no "noble savage" about it, man is inclined to selfishness and sin.

Such behaviour sometimes harms other human beings, but saying it is "caused by Satan", is a huge copout that gives us no idea how to handle/modify/contain those impulses successfully. It is a dead-end theory.

I never said it was caused by Satan. It can be, but most of the time we are the ones to decieve ourselves into thinking we know better than to listen to God.

 

[frob2900]

Not inclined to sin? Take away all factors keeping a man's selfishness in check (government, family, religion, etc.) and watch how he behaves. There is no "noble savage" about it, man is inclined to selfishness and sin.

Like I said, sin doesn't enter into the matter at all. The selfishness exists for evolutionary advantage. Who said anything about "noble savages"?

Also, family exists without government or religion.

I never said it was caused by Satan. It can be, but most of the time we are the ones to decieve ourselves into thinking we know better than to listen to God.

No, it can never be caused by Satan. Anymore than it can be caused by Sauron.

 

[silver 2039]

No, it can never be caused by Satan. Anymore than it can be caused by Sauron.

Don't insult the power of the Dark Lord of Mordor.

 

[MobBoss]

So all Christian denominations (protestant, orthodox, catholic, mormon, jehovas witnesses etc.) are "Christians" in your sense, and don't have "their hearts hardened by Satan"?

Some could be wrong in their particular interpretation of the scripture; however, the point remains, the basics of the religion are pretty much the same along all those denominations....if they all believe in the divinity of Christ and declare him as their lord and savior and believe the bible to be the word of God, and dont act contrary to that.....then I have no problem with them being labeled christian.

What about someone who proclaimed Jesus Christ his Lord and Savior but interpreted his ways differently and did stuff you don't agree with? Is that person still a christian?

Again, there is more to being a christian than just self-labeling yourself. I could call myself a black man, and yet it would be obvious to you I am not. You cant call yourself a christian and then go around murdering people. Its contrary to the word. Now, christians can and do sin....they are not perfect by any means...the difference is they are supposed to resist that sin and not embrace it.

What if a crazy person honestly accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but did really crazy things in Jesus name (and honestly thought he was doing Gods work).

He would still be held accountable by God for the things he did that were contrary to Gods will.