How powerful is Satan?

Satan is powerful enough to ...

  • make bad things happen to bad people

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    89
  • Poll closed .
I have learned two things:

1. Humans are not rational or logical beings.

2. That is not a bad thing.

Now obviously irrational behavior can end up being good or bad, that all depends on how it is used.
 
1. Humans are not rational or logical beings.
I think this varies somewhat from person to person and mood to mood.

2. That is not a bad thing.
Often it isn't, sometimes it is. Catastrophically so (e.g. World War I, the Wars of the Reformation, the Crusades etc.)

Now obviously irrational behavior can end up being good or bad, that all depends on how it is used.
The more irrational you are, the higher the chances of you being swayed by a charismatic idea who takes advantage of your irrationality.
 
The nature of Man is that of a neutral one...

Not according to Jesus.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

The nature of Man is that of a neutral one, not one that is predisposed to sin.

Not according to the Apostle Paul.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Well, the doctrine's not in Judaism...
Not according to David, King of Israel.

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
 
Quasar1011 said:
Not according to Jesus.

Not according to the Apostle Paul.

Not according to David, King of Israel.
I was talking about Judaism, not Christianity, fool. The New Testament and Christian interpretations of the Old Testament are irrelevant.

Moderator Action: Flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
I was talking about Judaism, not Christianity, fool. The New Testament and Christian interpretations of the Old Testament are irrelevant.

Ah...King David was a jew Bill.

And wth is wrong with you lately? You have just been nasty as hell calling people names and such. Time for a break maybe?
 
LOL hell doesn't sound that nasty then MobBoss if all they do is call you names ;)
 
Ah...King David was a jew Bill.

One quote taken out of context is overridden by the consensus of the Jewish community on this matter. My entire theme in this thread and others on human nature was about various views on the nature of humanity in various religions, and in particular, Christianity and Judaism, not about what is "true".

And that particular post was jest over the fact that Judaism doesn't beleive in original sin, and the fact that original sin is only found in Christianity and no other religions as evidence that it's false, compared to other parts of the religion that is shared.
 
You're wrong. It means that newborns have sin in them. That's why they don't go to heaven. It's a terrible concept.
What is Sin?
The capacity to do evil. And quoting Augustine does not help in arguing against the Catholic Church, its theology has moved on.

The reason why we can study theology is because we accept that God has not revealed everything to us, and generally speaking, theology is about exploring humanity's relationship with God. Which changes with time and new knowledge. What right have we to do so? We have no idea, its one of those articles of faith that a Catholic must make.
Often it isn't, sometimes it is. Catastrophically so (e.g. World War I, the Wars of the Reformation, the Crusades etc.)
How was the Reformation irrational? It was a war between the nobles and papacy! Nobles who supported Luther's religion which was quite amenable to state interests, and the papacy which was pretty much on logger heads with the nobility. The damn thing was a power struggle, as rational as everyday life.
The Crusades, on the other hand, were to liberate a tourist spot, liberate a political entity from the threat of annexation, and to maintain trade routes through the middle east. Not very different from what is now going on.

We never stated that religion isn't bloody, but we do say that without religion, history would be bloodier still. Who came up with Just War? The Church. Who came up with the idea that humans are equal? The Church. Who came up with the idea that human beings cannot be trusted to their own devices, that they would revert to savagery without society? The Church. Who popularized the idea that the State exists for the people? The Church.

How do you know? At first glance belief in a bearded Jehova might seem harmless, but look at how e.g. stem cell research is being combated by Christians, not to mention the gross violation of human rights in not allowing gays to marry.
Stem cell research is not being opposed, it is the use of embryos in this field of research that is being opposed. Do you think that without that opposition, we wouldn't have the methods that do not involve killing embryos? What basis have we for drawing the line? What right have we to draw the line? Disagree with the Church as much as you like, hell, I do too, but you must give them credit for provoking discussion on how science will affect our notion of what it means to be human, and what inherent rights, if any, do humans have.
Oh, and gays cannot marry in the Church paradigm due to their definition of what a family is. Argue with them on what is a family if you are going to argue on gay marriage. I fail to see how this violates human rights.
 
What is Sin?
The capacity to do evil. And quoting Augustine does not help in arguing against the Catholic Church, its theology has moved on.
....
The reason why we can study theology is because we accept that God has not revealed everything to us, and generally speaking, theology is about exploring humanity's relationship with God. Which changes with time and new knowledge. What right have we to do so? We have no idea, its one of those articles of faith that a Catholic must make.
I had this same discussion with Eran of Arcadia earlier. Apparently many christians are okay with an everchanging theology, despite the lack of new input from God. This just further convinces me that religion is purely an invention of man.
 
I had this same discussion with Eran of Arcadia earlier. Apparently many christians are okay with an everchanging theology, despite the lack of new input from God. This just further convinces me that religion is purely an invention of man.
Apparently, you'd rather we make a theology only using a set amount of information.

Input from God: Divine Revelation (Bible, Miracles, Apparitions etc.), Natural Revelation (Physics, Psychology, Biology, etc.), Reason (The means given by God by which we reconcile the 2)
And yes, Religion is made by Man, but inspired by, and helped by God.
 
And yes, Religion is made by Man, but inspired by, and helped by God.
That's where we differ. If you are going to put a God and a holy book into the picture you can forget about physics and such and obey the Laws of Your God. (I wouldn't be so stringent if discussing a religion that didn't threaten eternal damnation if you break The Rules)
 
Well, there are non-religious based "arbitrary"* beliefs that are part of the public discourse, that no one is suggesting be removed. Like a belief that communism is the best economic and political system. Even though a lot of people think it isn't, and it may cause them harm, no one will say it must be banned from politics, as it doesn't use the word "God". Same applies for capitalism, what have you.

*This is assuming that religious beliefs can always accurately be described as arbitrary, which I don't think is the case. It's not arbitrary, even if it is not correct, if the person who holds those beliefs thinks they have a good reason.

I am not advocating a ban. I am merely saying that such beliefs, like any other belief, should not be accorded any special respect just because they are religious.

-Drachasor
 
That's where we differ. If you are going to put a God and a holy book into the picture you can forget about physics and such and obey the Laws of Your God. (I wouldn't be so stringent if discussing a religion that didn't threaten eternal damnation if you break The Rules)
Uhuh. I'm Catholic, and we don't discount scientific facts. We don't follow Bible Literalism.

And Catholics don't threaten eternal damnation. That's entirely your impetus. We ask you to obey the Rules, yes, but we still acknowledge that they do not take into account all the nuances of life.
 
I had this same discussion with Eran of Arcadia earlier. Apparently many christians are okay with an everchanging theology, despite the lack of new input from God. This just further convinces me that religion is purely an invention of man.

Well, I believe the Bible, and that has remained the same since it was written and compiled. The only minor changes have been in the new translations, but they keep the essential meaning perfectly well IMO. Certain things have changed over the years, probably for the good (like traditional churches not playing music during worship :eek: ).

What were you thinking when you mention ever changing theolgy? I wish no offense to Catholics here, it's just that I don't agree with their beliefs, and I think that much of Catholicism is an invention of man - very little of the rules, etc come from the Bible - it all comes from the Vatican, and although I believe the Pope is a very kind, moral, generous person, he has a very wrong interpretation of Chrisitanity. I wouldn't go as far as saying he is the Antichrist (as others have said...) but Catholiscism is very different than the Christianity in the Bible, and they shouldn't be considered the same.
 
@frob: As I had hinted earlier, if you understood the claims of Mormonism you would not have said we are coming up with new theology without claiming new input. You can argue we don't actually receive it, but the fact is we do believe we do, and it is an essential part of our religion. Also, if "no new input" is allowed, then no Christian has to believe the doctrine of Original Sin anyways as it is not an original doctrine.
 
What were you thinking when you mention ever changing theolgy? I wish no offense to Catholics here, it's just that I don't agree with their beliefs, and I think that much of Catholicism is an invention of man - very little of the rules, etc come from the Bible - it all comes from the Vatican, and although I believe the Pope is a very kind, moral, generous person, he has a very wrong interpretation of Chrisitanity. I wouldn't go as far as saying he is the Antichrist (as others have said...) but Catholiscism is very different than the Christianity in the Bible, and they shouldn't be considered the same.
Isn't personal interpretation essentially looking at the bible through the viewing glass of your personal experiences?
Oh, and the Bible is a Catholic invention.

No offense meant, but such is the nature of a religious debate. :(
 
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