How powerful is Satan?

[frob2900]

You seem angry that people who believe different things nonetheless use the same umbrella term to describe themselves? They do this in politics too, you know.

Yeah, I know, don't get me started.

It doesn't matter if you find it disturbing; that doesn't leave you in a position to dictate what these arbitrary beliefs may or may not be.

Well, since it is indeed true that I am not in a position to dictate much to anyone, I suppose I'll just have to put my trust in people trying to minimize their arbitrary and superstitious behaviour in due time. Hopefully things will work out.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, since it is indeed true that I am not in a position to dictate much to anyone, I suppose I'll just have to put my trust in people trying to minimize their arbitrary and superstitious behaviour in due time. Hopefully things will work out.

You know, some people have done what you would call minimizing their arbitrary and superstitious behavior.

 

[frob2900]

You know, some people have done what you would call minimizing their arbitrary and superstitious behavior.

Who are they?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Who are they?

That depends on whta you mean by "minimizing".

I, for example, don't believe in the doctrine of Original Sin.

If you mean eliminating it entirely, then I don't think anyone, even atheists, are free from arbitrary behavior.

 

[El_Machinae]

But why on earth do they do this? If there's no point to it except as an arbitrarily chosen "feel-good hobby" that varies from person to person, why do they pretend that there exists a serious debate?

You should check out the threads about where people debate whether superman could be the Silver Surfer. People will debate about anything.

As to 'why', then? Well, about 80% is due to culture (the religion they were raised in) and 20% is 'other': introspection, a spiritual event which requires explanation, etc.

 

[frob2900]

That depends on whta you mean by "minimizing".

I, for example, don't believe in the doctrine of Original Sin.

If you mean eliminating it entirely, then I don't think anyone, even atheists, are free from arbitrary behavior.

Well, of course it's probably impossible to rid ourselves all arbitrary behaviour, but w.r.t. religions it would just be so simple to note how absurd religious beliefs are (from a modern non-superstitious perspective) and thus reject it. The reason I say "absurd" is that they are completely arbitrary and completely unfalsifiable, I would say to the same degree as belief in leprechauns.

Many christians would call belief in leprechauns absurd, I hope.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the reason religion is still rather prominent is that parents indoctrinate their children with it. If it weren't for "inherited religion" so to speak, I think there would be noticeably fewer christians. Of course, there are people who convert at an adult age for purely personal reasons, but I'm rather certain this is an insignificant percentage of those who are religious due to family tradition or because they married into religion.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, of course it's probably impossible to rid ourselves all arbitrary behaviour, but w.r.t. religions it would just be so simple to note how absurd religious beliefs are (from a modern non-superstitious perspective) and thus reject it. The reason I say "absurd" is that they are completely arbitrary and completely unfalsifiable, I would say to the same degree as belief in leprechauns.

Many christians would call belief in leprechauns absurd, I hope.

I don't see belief in leprechauns as absurd if the person has a good reason to believe in them. Like, has met one or something. If it is just because other people do, maybe it is absurd.

As for the rest, well, just because you see something as absurd doesn't mean everyone will. There is no accounting for perspective.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the reason religion is still rather prominent is that parents indoctrinate their children with it. If it weren't for "inherited religion" so to speak, I think there would be noticeably fewer christians. Of course, there are people who convert at an adult age for purely personal reasons, but I'm rather certain this is an insignificant percentage of those who are religious due to family tradition or because they married into religion.

That sort of thing is hard to calculate. Is my belief entirely inherited? Well, I don't think so; after all, I am still in the religion I was born in but the majority of my family belongs to another one.

 

[warpus]

That sort of thing is hard to calculate. Is my belief entirely inherited? Well, I don't think so; after all, I am still in the religion I was born in but the majority of my family belongs to another one.

But you're all Christians, right?

 

[frob2900]

I don't see belief in leprechauns as absurd if the person has a good reason to believe in them. Like, has met one or something. If it is just because other people do, maybe it is absurd.

Fair enough. If someone has met a leprechaun, then believing in them isn't absurd.

I still think that person should be aware that hallucinations can occur, and should exhaust all other possibilities before deciding that the leprechaun was real.

As for the rest, well, just because you see something as absurd doesn't mean everyone will. There is no accounting for perspective.

Once you start slipping down that slope, madness awaits.

Obviously some things are too absurd to believe, don't you agree? What if I'm convinced that an invisible dragon is out to get me and I refuse to leave my bedroom? Wouldn't you say it would be fair to put me in treatment?

 

[Bill3000]

Let's put it this way: what evidence do you have that Original Sin is a false doctrine?

Well, the doctrine's not in Judaism, and the interpretation of the story of the Fall is different. The nature of Man is that of a neutral one, not one that is predisposed to sin. Considering the fact that it's not in a religion whose tradition is much older than Christianity, I'd say the probability of it being created with the religion is pretty high.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I saw a leprechaun once

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

But you're all Christians, right?

Most of us are.

Of course, my views on religious matters are not quite the same as anyone else's in my family.

 

[El_Machinae]

I still think that person should be aware that hallucinations can occur, and should exhaust all other possibilities before deciding that the leprechaun was real.

Naw. Only really if their belief in leprechauns would cause them to partake of activities which would hurt people. Belief in leprechauns might have a better (more rational) explanation, but it's mostly harmless.

 

[frob2900]

Naw. Only really if their belief in leprechauns would cause them to partake of activities which would hurt people. Belief in leprechauns might have a better (more rational) explanation, but it's mostly harmless.

How do you know? At first glance belief in a bearded Jehova might seem harmless, but look at how e.g. stem cell research is being combated by Christians, not to mention the gross violation of human rights in not allowing gays to marry.

 

[holy king]

Naw. Only really if their belief in leprechauns would cause them to partake of activities which would hurt people. Belief in leprechauns might have a better (more rational) explanation, but it's mostly harmless.

hm... i tend to think that if people start to believe in whatever metaphysical explanations come to their minds development and implementation into everyday life of science could take a really big hit...

 

[El_Machinae]

How do you know? At first glance belief in a bearded Jehova might seem harmless, but look at how e.g. stem cell research is being combated by Christians, not to mention the gross violation of human rights in not allowing gays to marry.

No argument from me. As far as I can tell, with the stem cell 'controversy' the belief ended up effectively causing deaths. Which is why I take issue with those beliefs.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I too have issues with stem cell research protests, as much from the theological side, although I don't think the ethical questions raised should just be ignored.

(My views on gay marriage being far more complex, and having been stated elsewhere, I will merely say that the government needs to provide essential rights to all its citizens, and I will worry about the higher laws.)

 

[drachasor]

I don't have a problem with arbitrary behavior so long as it doesn't harm people/society.

I do have a problem with arbitrary beliefs being brought into public discourse with the assumption that they should be respected. A purely faith-based belief has no place in the pragmatic world of government policy, we must depend on cold, calculating reason. What faith-based or other arbitrary beliefs do is muck up attempts to be pragmatic. There are other things* that muck this up too, and they also need to be addressed.

-Drachasor

*A lot at the moment, especially in the US.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, there are non-religious based "arbitrary"* beliefs that are part of the public discourse, that no one is suggesting be removed. Like a belief that communism is the best economic and political system. Even though a lot of people think it isn't, and it may cause them harm, no one will say it must be banned from politics, as it doesn't use the word "God". Same applies for capitalism, what have you.

*This is assuming that religious beliefs can always accurately be described as arbitrary, which I don't think is the case. It's not arbitrary, even if it is not correct, if the person who holds those beliefs thinks they have a good reason.

 

[frob2900]

Well, there are non-religious based "arbitrary"* beliefs that are part of the public discourse, that no one is suggesting be removed. Like a belief that communism is the best economic and political system. Even though a lot of people think it isn't, and it may cause them harm, no one will say it must be banned from politics, as it doesn't use the word "God". Same applies for capitalism, what have you.

I would certainly never suggest that religion be forcibly removed. On the other hand it still annoys me, being a large jewel in the Crown of Irrationality that mankind insists on wearing. Other jewels: fascism, nationalism and racism/bigotry.