[MoO] How to destroy the Guardian in the new ICEMOD

[Rocco.40]

In the new ICE Mod that i have created over the past two months, you will find a beefier Guardian is waiting for you at Orion.

Here he is, the little bastard; LEFT the original and RIGHT the new beasty:
EDIT March 18: Picture is from the new ICE Mod 10c Guardian

While I could have given him 50 Death Rays, or anything I wanted really - I just gave him just one (1) extra Death Ray...
... and slightly improved defensive weaponry

+ Specials changes:
Intertial Stabilizer > Inertial Nullifier
Lightning Field > Multi-Phased Shields
Multi-Wave ECM Jammer > Wide Area Jammer
Rangemaster Unit > High Energy Focus

The tried and proven merculite missile tactic with just a handful of ships will utterly fail here.
But I think it would be cool to find the new MINIMUM fleet required to take this bad boy down.
And it does not have to be a DOOM Star with Stellars, it can be done sooner than that.
Looking forward to your findings!

 

[neilkaz]

I'll chime in here as I may be one of the few regulars here to download and play ICEMOD.

Yes, the Guardian is MUCH harder to kill now! Is it too hard? I dunno, but previously unMOD it was TOO easy to kill it. My attempts at using the exact minimal fleet failed, but it really didn't take much to kill the Guardian in vanilla. Just knock down the shield (125 damage) and get a couple EMGs thru and good bye!

Now it takes 840 damage to knock down the shield and with X class shields + hard shields the initial 13 damage does nothing.

There's so much missile defense that I could do almost no damage with a bunch of missile ships with Zeon and EMG Zeon missiles.

Beam defense is +170 rather than +100 and much of the time my distupters (I didn't have a high end computer) missed. Occasionally, one Heavy Disrupter hit doing 60-13 damage (47).

Plasma torpedoes (I'd stolen that tech) usually or may have always missed as well. I guess this was due to the wide area jammer.

Clearly I needed something better and that better is Maulers! Mauler Devices always hit so my computer wasn't a factor. Range dissipation is a problem but I used heavy and the Guardian charges at you so range isn't that much of an issue. (NR mod is available after you research the next tech (cost 15,000). My BB's with Maulers along with quite a few other ships serving as decoys or whatever killed the Guardian.

Of course, I lost quite a few ships doing this. I can't recall whether the Guardian fired his many PD Particle Beams at my ships at close range, but his Death Rays with HEF are punishing.

Is it too difficult to kill the Guardian now? Perhaps, since certainly playing Vanilla by the time I had researched to Maulers I could usually win the game without killing the Guardian. However, the tactic of killing the Guardian early is gone now. Note also, that the AI's will likely stay away from Orion for much longer or lose tons of ships trying.

Use Mauler Devices .. neilkaz..

 

[Rocco.40]

However, the tactic of killing the Guardian early is gone now.

...by the time I had researched to Maulers I could usually win the game without killing the Guardian.

Your points raised an interesting question and that is, around which turn should we be able to destroy the Guardian? We can ask this question, as we are now able to redesign / adjust the Guardian to make anything possible.

My minimum fleet atm is 8 BB's with Neutronium armor, Class III shield with a Positronic (+100) computer and Battle Scanner (+25). Some Veteran's some Regulars. No leaders onboard.
Weapon is HEF Hv Co Plasma Cannon. Lost 2 ships. This play was around T230. Failed numerous times with 7 BB's, as I was just missing sufficient momentum.

You are quite right that an 'only missile' strategy againt the Guardian seems quite dead. I needed 8 BB's with Adamantium armor (to miniaturize ZEON's), with 11x Zeon's ECCM, FST and 5x with EMG. 2 shot missiles with Fast Missile Racks. Researched Sensors as well. When you used the ZEON EMG's, did you have sensors or Neutron Scanner researched?

 

[neilkaz]

I had Neutron Scanners and my Zeons did almost nothing to The Guardian.

In this 2nd game I am playing ICEMOD, turn 217 (always pre-warp for me) I captured 4 out of a raiding party of 6 Antaran ships. 2 didn't not blow up so I have many nice techs now including the +150 computer.

I'll see if Heavy Particle Beams can kill it (I expect shield piercing effects will be blocked so it might require many many ships).

Perhaps I can kill it by self destructing a bunch of ships with Quantum Det? Or at least bring down the shields and then use beams?

I'll try later. .. neilkaz ..

PS... I'd not make any changes to The Guardian until there's more collective experience in killing it as it is now.

EDIT: I thought a bunch of plasma cannons might do it, given a decent computer and HEF. They are great weapons, but not usually on my normal research path since my style of play is very ground combat oriented as I capture enemy worlds with troops and also like capturing Antaran raiders. Therefore, my normal research path is to choose plasma rifle.

 

[neilkaz]

OK I got a pwT234 (pw is pre-warp) Guardian kill using Particle Beams.

I sent 13 BB and 6 CC. All had the +150 computer, X armor, Damper Fields along with Rhull and Heavy Armor. It took quite a few turns but as my ships were hard to kill as was able to get into position to finally knock down a shield or two and start doing enough damage that it didn't all repair.

At the end of my attack I had 8 BB and 4 CC remaining.

All CC had 2 heavy Particle Beams and one Normal one. Most BB had 5 Heavy + 1 Normal and a few of them had 8 Heavy as I'd discovered Battle Pods by then.

Of course, this ship combo required my great luck getting a bounty of techs from the 2 captured Antaran FF's.

Of course, considering the techs I had, there was no need to go after Orion to win this game.

 

[Rocco.40]

Nicely done! Also considering Antarans should be more of a challenge in pw now than in 1.31. The delay time in pw used to be 100 turns more compared to avg game, in ICEMOD it is 50. (which is still lenient)

edit: when designing ICE I actually considered making the explode chance when capturing higher to 60 or 70%. But finally I left it as is, which is 50%

 

[neilkaz]

Nicely done! Also considering Antarans should be more of a challenge in pw now than in 1.31. The delay time in pw used to be 100 turns more compared to avg game, in ICEMOD it is 50. (which is still lenient)

edit: when designing ICE I actually considered making the explode chance when capturing higher to 60 or 70%. But finally I left it as is, which is 50%

Thx, I am glad that you left the explode chance at 50%. It takes a considerable investment in ground combat techs and/or attribute picks to have a chance to capture Antarans. This usually means not getting RHulls so you can take Powered Armor instead.

EDIT: Later in the same game, I captured all 6 of a raiding fleet and 5 blew up! One thing that happens when the explode is that the quantum det. blast destroys many assault shuttles going after near by raiders.

Re: pw delay time of 50 turns now. It is lenient but they now come several times with a big fleet. If you don't have a good fleet in response or good planet defenses, they can often kill your small fleet and your star base and then your planet. They are clearly more of a threat in ICEMOD pw than in 1.31. In 1.31 or 1.40b23 I could often win the game before seeing Antarans.

 

[Rocco.40]

Changed the Guardian picture above to the new 9c version.
Changes: 12 instead of 30 Pd Particle Beams and 3 instead of 6 Spat. Compressors.
Spatial Compressor minimum damage was also reduced to the original 1.31 value of 4.
Missile tactic should have a more fair chance of succes now.

 

[neilkaz]

Playing v9c, I was successful last night on pwT250 killing the Guardian by sending 7 BB using MIRV Zeon missiles, some with EMG of course. Yes I researched the 25000 RP chem tech to be able to MIRV them.

Each BB had BP's and Heavy Armor and was equipped with 10 non EMG MIRV Zeons and 4 more with EMG added. The Guardian instantly destroyed one of my BB's. It was the salvo of missiles from my 6th remaining BB that did the kill, with the other salvos getting shot by PD and those that survived knocking down the shield. I had A-Armor and Anti-Matter drives. I also had Neutron Scanner to help my missiles.

It would take quite a few more ships to do this with Pulsons.

I think the Guardian is about right now. .. neilkaz ..

PS I wasn't happy that Death Spores was one of my techs from Orion !!

 

[Rocco.40]

Cool story, and with 7BB's you have set the new minimum fleet record
In my Guardian tactics, it helped that when I had initiative, the first round I would let the Guardian take initiative (I do not launch missiles but hold). Once the beast made his move, I will launch missiles and then move the ships forward. 2nd turn, i take my initiative and launch 2nd volley.

I will try the Pulsons this WE, to find what min. fleet I need to make that work.

PS. the death spores, yeah you hit a small open nerve here as indeed I find as well it is not one of my more enlightened decisions LOL. It was part of a storyline idea that you can read in my wishlist. On top of that, the fact that Death Spores is a xenon tech, actually reduces the chance to get the Dimensional Portal by 3 percent points. >I will take it out in next update.

 

[neilkaz]

@Rocco

How do you get the initiative vs the Guardian with speed 14 and 200 beam attack? Don't you high end techs and Aug Engines?

Re: shooting missiles and then advancing and shooting the next round next turn. If you time this right based on missile speed, you can often just advance a couple of squares on your 2nd turn and get both salvos of missiles to hit together. Of course this means having ships that can be hit a few times at somewhat close range and still retreat.

 

[Rocco.40]

The guardians initiative = 200/10+14=34 (Beam Offense/10 + Combat Speed)

indeed, to get initiative you need a high drive, augs and good compu on board.
Normally i leave computers out on missile boats, but for the Guardian I def. make an exception.

 

[neilkaz]

Just killed it playing ICE 10 on T229pw with 22 BB's armed with 10 MIRV Pulsons and 3 EMG MIRV Pulsons. This was a 1st salvo kill and probably could be done with a couple or even a few less BB.

Of course this fleet is sufficient to put some serious pain on the AI's and will be made even better as I refit to death rays and subspace teleporters, along with fighter ships with particle beams and assault bay ships.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

I tested beam weapons vs the Guardian rather thoroughly. All the following used 210 weapon space, in Battleships with HEF, Hyper-X, Rangemaster, as well as Battle Pods, Aug Engines and Battle Scanner.

NOTE: I typically bring 6 ships, but I was Creative; the number of ships necessary may be greater than what I list below if you lack things like Megafluxers.

Or, say, if you can't beat Orion's 34 Initiative. I had 19 speed (Hyperdrives + Augmented Engines) + 165 or more Beam Offense (Positronic Comp + Battle Scanner + Regular or better Crew) = 35+. So skipping a computer because you have Maulers and think you don't need it may be a bad idea. It's not like they take up any ship space.

A Weaponry officer can also help with this due to increasing Beam Offense, and Navigator for speed.
__________________________

Briefly: If you have High Energy Focus, Gauss Cannons are the cheapest option that does the job reliably. Unless you have a good Ordnance officer, then Phasors can do it too.

Less briefly:

(Every weapon had 1 level of refinement)

26 Phasors or 13 HM Phasors
vs Class X shield (10) and Hard Shields (3), 5-20 damage is harshly trimmed even after HEF.

No leader: My usual choice of 6 BBs failed horribly. Took the shield down, but that's all they did. Built 6 more, and even as 12 they couldn't really do much to the armor.

Adding a 22 Ordnance officer let 5 BBs do the job, though.

Then I tried 12 BBs with HM Phasors (and no officer), on the theory that HM will help beat the 13 points of shield absorption per shot. Funny thing happened. I fired my full round 1, then on the Guardian's round 1, it killed 3 of my ships, the third one exploded and the death explosion killed the Guardian.

26 Gauss Cannons
18 damage + HEF beats the shield rather nicely, AND they are more space-efficient than Phasors per damage point, AND they don't dissipate.

5-6 ships needed normally, 3-4 with 22 Ordnance.

10 Plasma Cannons or 5 HM Plasma cannons
No leader: 6 ships did even worse than Phasors, didn't bring down a shield. 12 did it, but barely. Took 2 rounds and lost half the fleet.

Of course, 22 Ordnance Makes Everything Better. 3 ships did the job with that.

Heavy Mount also helped, probably by reducing damage dissipation and by beating the shields by a larger margin. The Shield went down faster, and when I brought 12 ships, the 9th ship killed Orion on turn 1.

13 Disrupters
Pure awesomeness. This is the best weapon in the game, especially after you autofire it, if you are not facing Reflection Fields and if your your Beam Offense isn't horrid (in either of those cases, go Maulers). My general-pupose ships always get a few heavy mount, too, to kill planetary defenses behind Barrier Shields. (I only take them against Antarans if I have Damper Field, and then I still go fully Heavy Mount. But I digress).

Anyway, we're sticking to 1 refinement here so no autofire or other gimmicks:

3 ships normally, 2 with 22 Ordnance.

4 NR Maulers
Are space-inefficient compared to Disruptors, especially once you can autofire them (*), but they're still a good choice for Guardian, if for some reason the Guardian is still in the game while you teched that high.

3 ships normally, 2 with 22 Ordnance.

(*) Maulers' only function in this game as far as I'm concerned is to beat Antarans, or anyone else who has Reflection fields, due to the Reflection Field failing more the more base damage you're doing. I suppose you can always use them to compensate for not having a computer, since they don't miss, but using beam ships and NOT having a good computer (initiative!) seems kinda insane to me.

Of course if you're going to tech as far as 1-refined Maulers, you may as well try...

19 HM AF Phasors

No leader: 5 BBs did it
22 Ordnance: Only 2.
Makes sense, assuming that Ordnance is a flat addition to damage per weapon, rather than a percentage as strategywiki says.

EDIT:

But I think it would be cool to find the new MINIMUM fleet required to take this bad boy down.

Cool story, and with 7BB's you have set the new minimum fleet record

Haha. Well my record was 2 BBs until I read this.

Then I researched Physics 1, to get...

13 AF Disrupters (With the 22 Ordnance officer)
1 BB killed the Guardian. Total 14 Disrupters fired (Hyper X). The first salvo cleared the shields, armor, structure, and slightly ate into the engines. Save attached.
________________________

Is it too difficult to kill the Guardian now? HELL NO. Keep it like this. Please. Same with Antarans.

In fact, consider taking out the Automatic Repair (unless it's necessary to repair after surviving a battle?), and putting in something to make it able to take more damage. Energy absorber would be a good pick, or Displacement Device.

Or maybe Heavy Armor? I forget if that can be circumvented with beams, without late game tech. If I understand correctly, Heavy Armor would make it harder for beams but not affect the EMG missile strategy. That would be a good thing.

(Probably not Reflection Field, and not Phasing Cloak, not when Orion is supposed to be conquerable early enough to make the techs from it useful).

 

[Markus Ramikin]

And just for the fun of it, here's the truly minimum "fleet" to defeat the Guardian

Spoiler :

Or if you prefer:

Spoiler :

Of course you can't really count on being able to do that before the AIs kill it first; all the tests in the previous post were part of an actual game.

 

[Rocco.40]

hehehhh the Carta Extremis ... ... ok, ok I should have been more specific:

"The new MINIMUM fleet required to take this bad boy down", means a minimum fleet constructed with a minimal research points investment.
In other words, every minimum fleet should also be tagged with 'needs x RP'

In fact, consider taking out the Automatic Repair (unless it's necessary to repair after surviving a battle?), and putting in something to make it able to take more damage. Energy absorber would be a good pick, or Displacement Device.

If I would swap out ARU, then I guess I would put in the humble Augmented Engines for a +5 combat speed.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

So minimum fleet size, or minimum research? because all the base techs invovled are on the 2750 level, and Gauss can be HMed to skip HEF.

Well, it's an interesting question, so let's do the exact math.
Anti-Matter Drives: 50 + 80 + 250 + 900 + 2750 = 4030
Positronic Computer: 50 + 150 + 400 + 900 + 2000 + 2750 = 6250
Gauss Cannon: 250 + 650 + 900 + 1150 + 1500 + 2000 + 2750 = 9200
4030 + 6250 + 9200 = 19480
But this will probably take some 15 BBs, and a Weaponry leader or Veteran crews to beat Guardian's initiative. I'll have to test some time.

EDIT: tested, 18 ships with 10 HM Gauss cannons did the job, losing 6 in the process. Sadly, I got no Ordnance that game.

If we want my usual setup, we also want
+ 1 refinement for Gauss = 3500
HEF and Hyper-X = 4500+6000
19480 + 3500 + 4500+6000 = 33480
Usually 3 BBs requred with this if I have a good leader, 5 without.

Anyone feel like writing up how that goes for the missile strategy, and what exact techs and ship designs are involved?

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Bombers work!

In my last game I built a bunch of BBs, around the tech level of my Gauss ships, but with 5 Bombers each. With Anti-Matter bomb, 12 of them did the job. With Neutronium, I managed with 6.

EDIT: Heavy Bombers are even better, as expected.

 

[Rocco.40]

nice!

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Might as well expand the scope of this thread slightly and report on Antarans!

Heavy Fighters, which is my latest pet project, vs Antares: 24 Doom Stars did the job.
Here's the savegame if you're curious, the fleet is underway so just click next turn.

(HF AF Disrupters with Damper Field/Xentronium, all the usual goodies, and an Ordnance officer will require something like 2-4, depending on how early you get there but hey, this was fun.)