How to keep the game interesting in the later eras?

dulkan

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
6
Over the past half year, I played four C2C games (V36, with the crime patch as soon as it was available, immortal or deity difficulty, perfectmongoose, huge or giant maps, eon or eternity speed)

Every single game was decided in the late ancient/early classical, which caused me to call it quits.

The issues I run into:
- dead civs, i.e. civs, which never ever expand, several of those every game
- siege-heavy AI, AI likes to build lots of rams allowing me to defeat their army easily
- too much gold, expansion is so easy with the amount of gold available, that I actually get happiness capped for expansion
- massive tech-advantage. With or without tech diffusion, I usually end up being ahead in tech very early, with tech diffusion as early as late prehistoric, without, it takes until late ancient.

In my latest game I sit at 22 cities in mid ancient, second place civ is mongolia at 18 and my military rating is at 8.5. Tech-wise I'm about 15 techs ahead and they are listed as 2nd in tech by the rankings every 50 turns.
I could easily steamroll my entire continent, once I adopt monarchy and that would be that.

How can I avoid, that the game gets decided so early, besides simply starting in a later era?
 
play on nightmare mode or against a team of ai's(you can even form a team of ai's mid game in the worldbuilder and/or give all tech you researched away to the ai's
you can also give all cities of one ai to another(but give them some law enforcment units as well if you do that)
if there are still unsettled area's you can give the ai setlers in the worldbuilder.
more things you can give the ai are tamed animals, great persons and those units that can be used to get production
 
Don't play on Aeon or Eternity for one - many, many complaints about balance are linked to choosing a way too long game setting. For another, don't play with Revolutions or the Mastery victory, as they unfairly affect the AI.
 
Here is what i do, i never ever play on anything higher than Noble, and anything higher than a Large map. Also, No Rev, No S&D, not playing more than 7 civs, and on Epic or Monarch ONLY,, NEVER EVER higher.

I am ALWAYs behind in techs, usually about 15-20 behind by Classical around 25 by Medieval era.

The ai is ALWAYs about 20 cities ahead of me also.

I betcha get a darn FAIR game out of this, and infact, i bet the AI beats the heck out of u. . . .
 
Do you mean after Noble, AI is dumber?

From what i have "heard" only complaints now, anything from Monarch and above, "could be.":dunno:

But of course thats why i made Nightmare Mode also??
 
- dead civs, i.e. civs, which never ever expand, several of those every game
Still an issue eh? Will need to try to address this before the next release if possible.

- siege-heavy AI, AI likes to build lots of rams allowing me to defeat their army easily
Still? I know they need a lot of combat training but I wouldn't blame it all on excess rams lately at least. I could be wrong and it could still be an issue.

- too much gold, expansion is so easy with the amount of gold available, that I actually get happiness capped for expansion
Yeah... those who try to address this are usually rebuked.

- massive tech-advantage. With or without tech diffusion, I usually end up being ahead in tech very early, with tech diffusion as early as late prehistoric, without, it takes until late ancient.
That's what happens when you can out-conquer and out-expand your opponents. I'd like to eventually develop a mechanism that gives smaller nations a huge research benefit and larger ones a research penalty so that as you begin to dominate, it gives the smaller civ an advantage that may actually allow it to exceed rather than just help it to catch up in an insufficient manner.

I have also always believed that if you can make every bit of ground the player wishes to conquer a much tougher effort to achieve then we can stretch out the games longer. This has not been met with pleased responses.
 
Why does it take you longer to dominate the tech race if you play without tech diffusion? I was always under the impression that tech diffusion works (mostly) in the opposite direction?

Another point: Please note that easy gold works for all players and actually helps the AI far more than it helps you. That has been discussed in the forums many times, but the evidence is clear.

Last point: Starting in a later era is unsupported, other than maybe in Ancient.
 
- too much gold, expansion is so easy with the amount of gold available, that I actually get happiness capped for expansion

Yeah... those who try to address this are usually rebuked.

Playing on the extreme games will make it unbalanced. Balancing for them just makes it harder and unbalanced for those of us playing on noble and having a hard time getting gold until the middle ages. I have made suggestions on reducing gold in that era and on, also told not to:D.
 
So, who exactly is wielding the veto to keep the longest, most unbalanced game-lengths, despite everything that gets said on a very regular basis? Clearly, someone is.
 
So, who exactly is wielding the veto to keep the longest, most unbalanced game-lengths, despite everything that gets said on a very regular basis? Clearly, someone is.

Sorry dont understand what u wrote??:crazyeye:
 
Everyone seems to agree that the longest time-frames are highly unbalanced and trying to correct for that throws off the rest of the mod's balance, such as it is. So, why do those game lengths still exist?
 
So, who exactly is wielding the veto to keep the longest, most unbalanced game-lengths, despite everything that gets said on a very regular basis? Clearly, someone is.

I can tell you it's Not me! I've wanted to trim Eon and Eternity for Years now. But upper management keeps shooting me down. And Do Not use a Giant map with these 2.


- dead civs, i.e. civs, which never ever expand, several of those every game
Still an issue eh? Will need to try to address this before the next release if possible.

This is v36 with only the Crime Patch. Your fix for this was After the CPatch.

- siege-heavy AI, AI likes to build lots of rams allowing me to defeat their army easily
Still? I know they need a lot of combat training but I wouldn't blame it all on excess rams lately at least. I could be wrong and it could still be an issue.

Same answer as above.

- too much gold, expansion is so easy with the amount of gold available, that I actually get happiness capped for expansion
Yeah... those who try to address this are usually rebuked.
Same old tired argument from Deity players. They can not have everything their way. Simple as that. There Has to be a decent Gold flow for the AI to thrive. Reduce it like what was done before and we are Back to square 1.

- massive tech-advantage. With or without tech diffusion, I usually end up being ahead in tech very early, with tech diffusion as early as late prehistoric, without, it takes until late ancient.
That's what happens when you can out-conquer and out-expand your opponents. I'd like to eventually develop a mechanism that gives smaller nations a huge research benefit and larger ones a research penalty so that as you begin to dominate, it gives the smaller civ an advantage that may actually allow it to exceed rather than just help it to catch up in an insufficient manner.

Tech Diffusion already does most of this. Only the player benefits from it as well. I hope it never gets done this way.

I have also always believed that if you can make every bit of ground the player wishes to conquer a much tougher effort to achieve then we can stretch out the games longer. This has not been met with pleased responses.

Here is your defender for Eon and Eternity.

Now to address dulkan directly:

Over the past half year, I played four C2C games (V36, with the crime patch as soon as it was available, immortal or deity difficulty, perfect mongoose, huge or giant maps, eon or eternity speed)

Every single game was decided in the late ancient/early classical, which caused me to call it quits.

1st things 1st and has already been stated Stop playing on Eon or Eternity, especially in conjunction with Huge/Giant Maps. These game speeds exaggerates Everything in the Mod, Everything, Especially Gold and early game steam roll.

The issues I run into:
1.- dead civs, i.e. civs, which never ever expand, several of those every game
2.- siege-heavy AI, AI likes to build lots of rams allowing me to defeat their army easily
3.- too much gold, expansion is so easy with the amount of gold available, that I actually get happiness capped for expansion
4.- massive tech-advantage. With or without tech diffusion, I usually end up being ahead in tech very early, with tech diffusion as early as late prehistoric, without, it takes until late ancient.

1. Dead Civs: Most Dead Civs (won't expand for a long time) are Leader Trait Caused. Combined with some of the Leader trait Options.
2. That has been addressed but you will need to get on the SVN to get the current versions that are beyond that old V36 problem.
3. See the above response to game speeds.
4. This is directly related to Game Set up Options which you did not list. Also another Option that hurts the AI is using the Master Victory selection. Only use 2 or 3 Victory Conditions. Perhaps limit your self by Not using Conquest as well since you are a Deity Player.

In my latest game I sit at 22 cities in mid ancient, second place civ is mongolia at 18 and my military rating is at 8.5. Tech-wise I'm about 15 techs ahead and they are listed as 2nd in tech by the rankings every 50 turns.
I could easily steamroll my entire continent, once I adopt monarchy and that would be that.
Of course you have 22 cities in mid ancient! All directly related to the Game speed and map size. You are ahead in tech for the very same reason.

they are listed as 2nd in tech by the rankings every 50 turns.'
Are you using the options that adjusts Difficulty every 50 turns?

How can I avoid, that the game gets decided so early, besides simply starting in a later era? [/quote]

Later era start may not be your answer either.

Now after all those messy replies, Stop using these Options for Game set up:
No game speed slower than Snail ( and even Snail is too many game turns on Huge map)
No Giant Maps (especially if combined with Snail or slower game speeds)
Revolutions (check the No Revolutions Option Box)
Mastery Victory (Uncheck)
Flex Difficulty (Uncheck)
Leader traits: If you use them, make sure you Pick a Leader with Cruel and/or Megalomania for Your Leader! Don't pick a leader that has all benefits (Like Spiritual for ex.) and no real down sides. Leader Traits can be turned off.

Since you only played 4 games the question arises what Game Options are you using?
Did you use the same set on all 4 games?
Did you use the Play Now set up? ( I hope Not as that has some of the Worst Game set up Options for an experienced Civ IV BtS player, makes the game easier)
Is your Leader/Civ one that has all the perks and not much downside? Like do you play Julius Caesar all the time? Or Hammurabi? But have never used Yagan the Aborigine or The Maori?
Do you use on your Map set up Start in Old World instead of using everywhere? Old World start is not a good selection for a big map.

How many AI did you set up for your 4 games?

So much detail that you have not given, that it is actually very hard to give you a clear cut way to slow your self down. And that is core. If you play Deity you Can Not take all the Good Options and Perks of Game Set up and expect the AI to compete. A later start will not change that either. Overall faster game speeds (try Epic and Large map with default # of AI) are part of your answer.

JosEPh :)
 
I can tell you it's Not me! I've wanted to trim Eon and Eternity for Years now. But upper management keeps shooting me down. And Do Not use a Giant map with these 2.

Overall faster game speeds (try Epic and Large map with default # of AI) are part of your answer.

JosEPh :)

Yeah, i wish we would get rid of these 2 also, too many complaints about them . .:rolleyes: . .

I agree on the Epic game speed, and Large map, and also IMPO do not start with over 7 civs. . . .:p

Please refer to post # 4. . . SO
 
That is the rarity not the norm. Leader traits are one of the biggest (if not main) reasons. And they are not Dead. They just take forever to plant that 2nd city.

JosEPh
 
I didn't realize that game speed had become part of the conversation. I dominate by medieval on faster game speeds than our slowest so the problem is pretty much the same either way - once you have a dominating invading force the game is as good as determined. On longer speeds this may seem to happen earlier because dominating forces have more time to accomplish war objectives before being hindered by the need to upgrade, so I can see how it is that game speed setting has led Joe and I to greater disputes regarding the ease of early city capturing. Still, on faster game speeds, lean back and go without war for an extra 30 minutes and you'll be in a new era and can overcome those early game difficulties anyhow.

In my opinion, it's not the game speed that's out of balance, it's the game that's not agile enough in its strategic structure nor skilled enough in its AI to keep it interesting.
 
i'm agree there is too much gold... Maybe add maintenance to some buildings. as player build more buildings than IA it should help to balance and avoid overexpansion. In fact i build nearly all buildings in all my towns as IA progress is slowwwwww ;)
Of course multiplayer is the best way to have a real challange but it's hard to find 8 players ready for a game that will last 6 months ;) (i don't talk about OOS that disgusted players and don't want to try it anymore...)
i'm agree that IA research should be improved a little, mostly on choices to focus on things that really help and not take all researchs in basic order ;)
 
In my opinion, it's not the game speed that's out of balance, it's the game that's not agile enough in its strategic structure nor skilled enough in its AI to keep it interesting.

Then the game speed is almost by definition unbalanced. Either you keep the setting and tell people to shut up when they complain or you remove the speed and focus on balancing for the less extreme speeds.
 
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