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How would the leaders react to defeat

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by WarKirby, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    An interesting question has come to my mind, I'm wondering how the various FFH leaders would react to being defeated. Their army has been slaughtered, they stand alone in the throne room as your troops enter. How would each leader react? Who would fight to their last breath, who would surrender, who would kill themselves rather than be captured, and who would somehow find a way to escape alive?

    Would cassiel use his powers to fight?, for example?

    The only one that notably comes to mind, I think Cardith lorda would surrender.
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Blood of the Angels shows that Cassiel would not use his power, but would willingly surrender himself to be ritually executed, asking only that Auric's forces leave the Grigori civilians alone.

    Einion Logos and maybe also Ethne would likely respond similarly.

    The Cardith personality might surrender but the Lorda side (i.e., Eurabatres) might push him to fight on. He might go ahead and surrender as his mortal form was too weak to fight physically and would have to use his cunning to find a way to escape. After regaining his form I don't see anything being able to make Eurabatres surrender though (although a unit with the beastmaster promotion could in the game).

    Arendel Phaedra would likely surrender, while the other Ljosalfar would fight to the death.

    Faerly Viconia would surrender herself, then somehow switch places with the ruler of the enemy that captured her in time to escape execution or "suicide."

    Varn would probably surrender if he were alone, but fight to the death if he were protecting his wife.

    Basium would fight to the death and then find a way to come back to fight some more.

    The Bannor leaders would fight to the death.

    Os-Gabella would of course rather kill herself, but cannot. She would allow her enemies to attack in the futile hope that one could be successful, and then kill them by sending their heads to a different dimension form their bodies. There is no way to capture a woman who hardly even has to think in order to teleport to anywhere in Creation or to any god's vault.


    Tebryn would probably fight to (and past) the death until the resurrection rune on Abashi was destroyed, and then likely surrender once he knows death would result in a return to hell instead of his resurrection here.

    Alexis would fight to the death.

    Flauros would feign surrender and then manipulate his captors into freeing him, or at least falling into numerous deadly traps he had set for them.

    Falamar would probably surrender and use his charms to talk his way free, at least if he knew a woman was in charge of the enemy.

    Hannah is extremely fickle. Some days she might fight to the death, some days she would kill herself.


    If Sandalphon could not escape then he would kill himself, unless he feared that the enemy would use necromancy to bring him and his friends back in which case he would surrender.

    Perpentach would probably just sit back and watch the troops sent to capture him fight each other to the death. If these troops were golems then he would surrender, in hopes of getting close enough to those who programmed them in order to take them over instead.

    Keelyn would probably summon another of her Balor friends to fight for her.

    Dain would likely fight to the death (probably his would be captors' deaths, not his, as you don't chalenge the worlds strongest mage like that), but would surrender if necessary.

    Valledia has very little magical still and is not that physically impressive, so fighting would not make much sense. She would probably have many really good escape plans set (and probably knows some basic shadow magic), so capturing her would be hard. She might surrender if she knew that she could blackmail her captors or their king into freeing her, but would otherwise kill herself lest she reveal her many secrets under torture.

    The Luchuirp are too physically weak to fight on their own and have ethics that prevent suicide. Their leaders might try resisting, but would ultimately be subdued and sold into slavery as jesters at Perpentach's court (again).

    The Khazad leaders would likely fight to the death, but might at least consider suicide.

    Charadon would certainly fight to the death. I'm less sure about Mahala, but she might do the same.
     
  3. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    I admit I'm opposed to the position 'they will fight to the death of their captors'/post-defeat victory. This is their defeat, after all; their strengths and talents have already been matched and supersceded, or else they wouldn't have been defeated in the first place.

    If you've beaten the Amurites, you've already found means to best their magics; one more mage/archmage afterwards isn't going to turn the tide after it's already been decided.

    Similarly with the Sheaim. You've already overcome that sort of magic in besting her in the first place. I can perfectly see her escaping, but she's not going to take out your army.

    If you've beaten Faeryll, then you already know her tricks and schemes. The doppelganger replacement might have worked (and I feel it didn't) in terms of the elven civil war scenario,, but there's no similar excuse/justification for her to be able to do it with anyone and everyone else.

    Perpentach is a similar case. Post-loss victory misses the point that they lost in the first place. Make a case for fleeing by distracting/turning a few? Sure. But he already lost despite his powers. That's why he's the defeated and not the victor.
     
  4. mimic

    mimic Magic Box

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    Some of the leaders are powerful but if their people and soldiers are defeated what can one person do?

    In Einon Logos pedia entry it says he marches to war and that enemies have surrendered rather than fight him so I'm not sure about that but your the Lore master :p


    EDIT: Ah I was wrong it says "threatening armies retreated from cities once they found out he was in them"
     
  5. Verdian

    Verdian Chieftain

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    Yes, I gathered that was more from the fact that Einion has great political power and that the Elohim army was feared, more so than Einion himself was especially strong.

    I think Os'Gabella could take out an entire army, if she felt like it. She cannot be killed, is the worlds best hunter, and is incredibly strong, so given enough time she could stab everyone without even flinching as they attacked her. The fact that she could teleport them to anyplace she felt like, or summon anything from anywhere would make the job even faster. The only reason she doesn't do things like this is because she does not need to, and she probably realized it would draw attention to her and make her life more difficult. Os'Gabella is one of my favorite "villains" ever. :lol:

    That fact that she did do it the one time she was defeated should be enough to show what she is most likely to do for this hypothetical question.

    The point is, saying "They wouldn't be able to do that because I would stop them" doesn't help advance this thread topic much. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    Os'Gabella isn't a Mary Sue, nor is she omnipotent or unbeatable; Nemad's still in chains and bound, and so can she. The fact that she and her armies have, you know, been defeated (and are regularly defeated in-game) sort of proves that she can't do anything she wants. Even when she 'needs to', she either doesn't or can't bring forth the powers to win. And since she's arguably one of the most motivated characters in the lore, 'doesn't' isn't a good excuse.

    I really don't see the justification for such fan-worship for her. Even without killing, there are many ways, especially in fantasy context, to nullify/neutralize/incapacitate her. Just like Nemad.

    She (Faeryl) replaced her sister, a fellow elf, someone with whom she had extensive experience and personal knowledge of in a culture that was not so differerent from her own (not least because they were the same).

    Faeryl really doesn't have claim to be able to fool, say, Luchirp by copying Beeri Beeri, or the Ilians and Auric, or Basium, or pretty much every leader but the one she personally knows in and out.

    I really don't see how you can assume the Elven Civil War is anything but a special case, even for lore. Faeryl makes a poor Amurite Archmage/Lanun playboy/Selfless pacifist/Hippus warrior/Luchirp/insane clown/angel fanatic/demon fanatic/ midget dwarf man. IE, she makes a poor pretty much every other civ male, and most of the females.


    Except, according to the thread, you already have. This isn't a question of if you can beat them and their civ; you already have. So yes, you can stop them. The fact that this question is posed already proves/assumes that.
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Bear in mind that while Nemed may be as invulnerable as Os-Gabella, he is not a sorcerer like she is. He may or may not have been allowed to keep some memory of how to bend the laws of physics from when he as God of Lie helped write said laws, but f so his expertise is likely limited to the life sphere. He may be able to heal anyone, but it would not give him the type of abilities Gabella has. Os-Gabella has studied for ages under Ceridwen and also under Kylorin. Her expertise is in dimensional magic, so her ability to escape far exceeds his.
     
  8. Opera

    Opera Chieftain

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    Aren't you fan-worshipping Cassiel...? :lol:
     
  9. mahazel

    mahazel Chieftain

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    ... :lol:
    One letter, but...

    What about Orcs? I think Shelba would surrender (she was captured by Bannor when she was a child), but Jonas would fight to death.
     
  10. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    I c wat u did thar.

    I would've done the same. Grammar/spelling nazi, I know...
     
  11. Dean_the_Young

    Dean_the_Young Chieftain

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    Not really. I think he's cool, but that's because even though he does have a claim to power, he never uses it. I would never claim Cassiel would suddenly rise up and wipe out the invading army. Otherwise, he wouldn't be cool in the first place. ;)

    It's not a question of being able to escape (I personally put her under the 'our leader has abonded us!' event choice), but a question of being an ubeatable warlock. Which, in FFH, seems like something of a 'no such thing.'

    Fire to disrupt her concentration, drugs/powders to subdue her, dispel magics to counter her own attacks and attempts to escape, even anti-magic fields depending on which mod and if you find it appropriate... even without killing, there are plenty of ways to handle a mage, or immortal, or immortal mage. She's immortal, not invincibile and unbindable.

    By the point at which her nation is ground to dust and she is defeated, it's more than proper to assume that there are counters to the Sheaim magics, and her own, or else she wouldn't have lost in the first place.
     
  12. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    Indeed. I tend to think that for mortals, and perhaps for gods or at least the servants, magic takes something to tap into. Either a word or a gesture or else a great reserve of energy, and hence could be prevented if you had the mage incapacitated for a bit. Os-Gabella can't die and knows more than any man born, but eventually she could be subdued given sufficient resources to do so.
    But most likely she has an escape spell or two readied for such an event and it would take powerful scying and teleportation to catch her long enough to bind her.
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I think it has been established that magic always requires tapping into some mana well, but that the Gods themselves act as their own, nearly infinite mana well. (They probably aren't truly infinite, but they can replenish themselves from the Gems of Creation which are. The mortals who hold those gems may have access to more power than the gods.) It was said that Arawn withdrew completely from Creation because necromancers were drawng from his well of power against his wishes, and he could not cut them off without cutting himself off from Erebus.

    I suspect that angels and demons can draw freely from their gods so long as they have their gods' aras, and are otherwise left to channeling the mortal way. Mortals typically are limited to channeling mana from their own plane, but I doubt Os-Gabella has that restriction. Ceridwen has shown those most loyal to her how to reach out to many planes of pure elements, including many that follow laws of physics drastically different from those of Erebus (perhaps some where mana-thermodynamics run in reverse).

    I guess it might be possible to capture Os-Gabella, but it would probably require somehow forcing/tricking her into getting into a solid Nullstone prison cell. Her physical strength is also far greater than that of any mortal, and might be able to break through the walls even if her magic could not.
     
  14. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Ouch, reverse laws of thermodynamics. Owwww.

    My guess would be capture would require the use of a large, strong anti-magic field, cuppled with a number of suicide attackers atempting to perform temorarily incapacitating attacks (severing tendons, extreme damage to joints and organs) as well as bind her with magic-stregthend chains, or better yet a Force-wall, then forcing her into a null-stone prision. So in my mind it IS possible, just very difficult.
     
  15. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

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    or an antimagic field + many, many archers. Its hard to run around when you're a walking pincushion, even if you are immortal.
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I don't believe that the existance of an anti-magic field has been established in Erebus. The closest things are: Mithril, which resists all enchantments; nullstone, which reflects all spells; the Luonnatar, which I'm not sure are really supposed to be immune to arcane magic in the lore, just divine; and the Runewyns, angels of Dagda who are immune to magic and can destroy magic with a touch.


    Cutting tendons, etc., would be worthless against Os-Gabella, as she heals completely by the tie the blades are removed. Her body may even push arrows out as part of her rapid healing.
     
  17. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

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    and if the blades aren't removed? I can't find any reference that says that her healing does anything more then just that, healing. The way I've pictured it is like a troll in dnd without the weakness to fire/acid.
     
  18. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    I have a feeling that most answers were posted assuming "if a melee rush defeated the nation" ... for without magic or a source of nullstone, it would be rather impossible to defeat said mages ... unless you were a REALLY good assasin, in which you could probably kill most of them (Enion, Dain) just not Os-Gabella.

    Now, if you had Sorcery, metamagic nodes, dispel magic spell ... ect, then sure. But on the point of an entirely mundane army "defeating" the opponent ... this is on an extremely large, LARGE SCALE. The reason why you can utterly (in game terms) defeat a civilization and they still are able to defeat you is because the leader cannot be everywhere at once. I have a feeling that "defeating your captors" is paramount to defeating the elite task force that came into your palace to capture or kill you, and ... seeing the situation as being impossible, you slip into the shadows.

    Now, many leaders would simply surrender and plead with the invaders to show mercy on their people, while others would keep fighting against the ENTIRE ENEMY ARMY until they finally died. Others, seemingly non-beatable like Os-gabella, would kill those who got close-enough to cause her annoyance, and other-wise slip into the shadows to not be heard from again (and possibly when magic becomes dilute enough, in the age of discovery, she will finally become mortal and gain her wish)
     
  19. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    Sheelba would most probably surrender to people sharing her views on the world, that is to people of her religion, whatever is the faith she choosed. But she seems too strong willed ( after all, she fled in the wild after having had a civilized childhood, and ended lord of Clan of Embers !) to submit to someone not sharing her views on the ways things should be.

    Even then, I wonder if a chick able to cut/burn in the Pyre her right hand would surrender at all !
     

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