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How would you order the Civ 5 civilizations in their historical importance order?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Genghis Khaiser, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Of course. But I was answering the point that allegedly "such small isles produced so many writers".

    Well - Tolkien was "produced" in "large South Africa", not in "little isles in the north-western corner of Europe".

    He later moved to those "tiny isles", abandoning his huge homeland in South Africa.

    I think that was because his mother did not like the local climate and preferred those bloody old good British rains and clouds.

    And yes - Tolkien was an ethnic English / British guy (even though he allegedly he had French / Norman ancestors in the Middle Ages).

    Or maybe he was a local Boer / Afrikaner ??? No - he was one of local English-speaking people, IIRC.
     
  2. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Deity

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    I never said Tolkien was limited to LOTR. I personally liked his beowulf review.
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I doubt he has 'influence' outside of the fantasy genre. As i had stated before, Tolkien (in my view) is a bad writer, and he was incredibly detrimental to the development of the (british, and consequently all) fantasy genre which existed before him (as in the work of Dunsany, a quite good author in my opinion).

    I don't really see any literary value in Tolkien. Granted, i only have read the Hobbit, but that work is of very low value in my view.
     
  4. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    I dunno about Tolkien being a detriment to the fantasy genre but LOTR was awfully written.
     
  5. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    Russia have better novelist and fiction stories teller than any writer in the other part of the world. Dostoyevsky is not only one of the best story teller, but I argue he can be one of the best psychologist that able to portrait human inner struggle in the very honest and straight forward way. I think his impact is more than Shakespear or even Tolkien (why Tolkien? omg). Not to forget Gorky, Chekov, Tolstoy, etc, honestly I don't read novel except Russian novel, I consider reading novel mostly just waste of time it is better spend my time to play rpg game than reading novel (or watching movie, don't take that much time than novel) but Russian novel? that's an experience, you should put Russia in top 10 list if you count fiction writer as one of the determine aspect to categorize influential civilization (which I see that rather absurd). edit talking about influential writer, French with her Voltaire arguably have more impact and influence, than let's say entertainer like Tolkein.

    The only British writer that I like is, George Bernard Shaw. Man and superman, I read that like 3 time already.
     
  6. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Indeed. But they are underrepresented when it comes to Nobel laureates (maybe this is different when it comes to nominations but I couldn't find a list of all nominations in Literature):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature
     
  7. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    I'm sorry to disagree with you but I don't think Nobel prize and any other prize is a valid measurement to measure how succesful writer or novelist is, Samuel Becket gain Nobel Prize however I don't consider him to be that "amazing" or even more "influential". Nobel Prize is just a fancy trophy that sometime even I doubt to its objectivity and it is possible to be politicize as any other "Prize".

    I really concern though for Dostoyevsky possibly anti-Poland narration, however it doesn't exclude him as one of the best novelist ever. And peoples like Dostoyevsky, Gorky, or Chekov are arguably their works have strong influence for Bolsheviks revolution and other leftish thinkers in many part of the world, that itself make it so important for the course of history.
     
  8. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    By "underrepresented" I meant should be there but aren't there.

    The Nobel prize is very Western-and-Scandinavian centric, first of all.
     
  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Shouldn't we rather discuss about historical significance of civs rather than literature? :p

    Which civilizations are in your opinion the most OVERrated?
     
  10. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    I agree

    But someone argue that literature is a significant aspects for the history of civilization, I think that is the reason why peoples start talking about literature.


    mmm USA? ;) lets see a new civilization that gain credit as world super power after WW 2 especially after the cold war, that this claim also entirely open for discussion. And born as a result of European migration, that mostly borrow most of its culture and colour (high culture) from Europe, and suddenly raise up and claim to be the top 5 most important civilization of the history of mankind that already on going for hundreds thousand years??

    Of course many will disagree with me in this. Not to be anti-US just putting things on its proportion.
     
  11. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    On the other hand, America's influence is insanely big - we rate influence, not lifespan ;)

    Look, Greece golden age (when Philosophy and Science were born) lasted for less than 200 years, and those 200 years are visible today.

    On the other hand, we have Ethiopia, with 2000 years history. Now, let's remember some Ethopian great philosopher, scientist, or tell me in which ways Ethiopia influenced the world history... Without checking Google ;)

    Don't get me wrong, I am impressed by Ethiopian culture, but it seems obvious to me that world history would be much more different without America than without Ethiopia. I don't think that long life alone is better than short life ;)
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I wouldn't agree that the "golden age" of Greece lasted only for 200 years. For example in the 6th century there was Pythagoras, in the fourth century a load of notables, in the hellenistic age again a huge number of scientists. Even if you wish to end the Greek age with the Roman conquest, it should still be seen as lasting upwards of half a millenium. :)

     
  13. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    Science wasn't born in Greece, nor was philosophy for that matter.

    Most people wouldn't be able to name a single Pole without prompting either or even name a philosopher let alone say something intelligent about their work. In actual fact, I'd argue that most people couldn't reliably name someone and something they did from any given century. All of that though just tells us more about how human's form memories and interpret the world rather than how they're influenced by stuff. A lot of us would be influenced say Marx's work. But that doesn't mean necessarily that we have to know about the man or care about his ideas. But it is an inescapable fact that his was influential for all that.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Depends on what you mean. Using Steam for moving stuff wasn't born in England either. It still is obvious that England of that era is what practically is linked to the steam engine and the myriads of developments caused by it ;)
     
  15. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    That's interesting way to analyse! so you measure how important civilization and their impact in history by try predict on how is the course of history goes if the certain civilization is not exist or fail, and how big is this impact to change the course of history.

    I don't consider myself to have proper knowledge to speak regarding this issue. But lets just try to imagine if America does not exist, does it devastated the power of Europe in the course of History? mmm I don't think so. Does it close all the probability all of the modern invention that is found in America to be found in Europe? I don't think so. Does America role can be exchangeable with other country in the terms of invention for example? I think so.

    Does the Ethiophia for Africa is more determine and more important than America for Europe? I think so. And you forgot also the alliance between Ethiopia and the Muslims helps the Muslims key character to survive during the persecution, so lets say if Ethiopia does not exist do the history of the Muslims possibly change drastically? I think so. If a role figure like Jafar Ibn Abi Thalib been assassinated in Makkah does it change the role of Islamic history? I think so, do the existence of Islam have determine value to the world history? definitely.

    This is quite weak analysis though, hope someone who have more knowledge in America history in this forum can give their point of view regarding this.
     
  16. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    I think many of greek early philosophers learn in Persia, Babylon and Egypt. Pythagoras learn in Egypt. In the terms of complexity and civilization, even many Greek consider themselves ashamed and left behind with the building like hanging garde, that was most celebrate and inspire many of the greek writing. Not mention that Greek is not important, it is important! but I agree with what Masada say, science is not started from the Greek nor was Philosophy that conclusion is quite undermining other civilization especially eastern.
     
  17. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    We use the term Industrial Revolution, so we tend to link Great Britain's accomplishments with more than just Watt's steam engine. You'll also note that most people think "satanic mills", "child labor" and "weird Victorian morals" before they focus on "steam". So to wit, our views of even that single period are rather more complicated than what you seem to be suggesting. I'd suggest science is much the same. Most people when asked about a great scientist are going to throw out say Einstein and not any sort of Greek - ancient or otherwise. Philosophy might be a bit harder... if only because most people can't say much if anything about it. (I include myself here: I can say rather a lot of about some philosophers and I can sketch out some philosophical theories insofar as they related to my areas of study but I have limited to no insight on the subject matter itself. Most people would be, I imagine, considerably worse off than me).

    I'd date the beginnings of science considerably closer to the modern period than you guys are. People have obviously made scientific contributions but I'd consider those largely to be independent of science itself. Simple observations while useful aren't usually scientific although they might be useful as scientific data. I have zero idea about philosophy, although I'd guess it's probably inseparable form religious thought. Plotinus might be able to enlighten us.
     
  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Merely noting the quite mainstream (and rightly so, in my view) opinion that the Greek antiquity (classical and hellenistic mostly) pretty much shaped the (non-far east Asian) world for most of history. I don't doubt the Chinese civilization also had very high levels of scientific and philosophic or artistic breakthroughs and it is worth mentioning that Chinese culture regards the Greek culture of the golden era as "the other Great civlization" (as in the other, apart from the Chinese one).

    It is fairly certain that a large reason for the Greek golden age in science/thought/art was the Greek language, which is one of complicated form as well as elegance. The ancient version of it was even moreso, but the current one is mostly the same as the medieval (Byzantine) version. And (obviously) this has nothing to do with "nationalism", cause i am not claiming that current Greece is filled with genius or virtue. Current Greece is pretty much in the same crap as the rest of the 'west', regarding levels of virtue or creativity. I hope this changes, for all other nations too.
     
  19. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    That's meaningless. I could as soon argue that Zog is the most influential man in history and that our entire world dependent on his decision to share his food with Ogg.

    Yep, appealing to a mythical golden age that stands in stark contrast to our current fallen era totally isn't a nationalistic thing.
     
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    ^I see you reverted to your nice ways of old. Not interested in that muddy path, maybe you should get out of it too.
     

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