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How would you order the Civ 5 civilizations in their historical importance order?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Genghis Khaiser, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    What's up with your language? It's so condescending. What Chinese dynasty owned Korea? Japan owned Korea twice?, are you counting Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion in the late 1500s? The Chinese characters were adapted to write Korean down. I'm curious about why you're so hateful towards Korea. Because of your life there? I don't like Korea's current culture either, but not to your extent.

    Moderator Action: Quoted inappropriate language removed.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  2. Loucypher

    Loucypher King

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    Probably because throughout history, there has been a "China", which pretty much all the Chinese can to some extent identify with (If any Chinese disagree, I know I kind of simplified matters here, bear with me). Sure its size has been bigger and smaller, but let's look at the Ottomans vs the Byzantines, for example. You cannot simply say the Ottomans = Byzantines. They lived in the same territory, sure, but the difference is too big to ignore. Completely different culture/people. For the same token, what is now the Netherlands, you can only consider such from the time of William himself, really. Before that, the Netherlands lacked a true union. Let's suppose for example that a philosopher who lived in what is now Amsterdam made a great achievement...back in 500 BC. Nobody would call him Dutch.
    China however (and various other nations in the game) are a whole different beast. China has existed consistently for all those years. Nobody will truly say that Byzantium is still alive. Or the Roman Empire. Current day Italy does not make Rome.

    Which is why China should probably be #1 on the list. While one could make a good argument for Babylon/Assyria as the cradles of civilization, their impact was only in the seeds of it, while China influenced earth's developments for such a bizarre long time.
    Greece and Rome should come right after that.
     
  3. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I dont get the hate for Korea. While not most imporant, their culture is my favorite and I know a few things about it.
     
  4. lokithepunishr

    lokithepunishr Warlord

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    It is condesceding, and I apologize for that.

    You are right, my time in Korea has made me very bitter towards the country, but at the same time Korea is a very difficult country for foreingers to live in. "Foreigners not allowed" is accceptable as a sign outside a bar. Human rights are clearly not a thing here.

    At the the same time, Korean news will avoid articles about how a Korean American recently called in a bomb threat to Harvard, while continueing to promote things about how Korean culture is >

    If you would like to argue about this I would like us to do it via msg or skype, my hatred for Korea and the culture (although justified in my opinion) is something I would rather not discuss in public
     
  5. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Moderator Action: Please don't continue the discussion RE: Korea.

    Moved to the World History forum, as only the premise vaguely relates to the game; the discussion is about history.
     
  6. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Ranking actual civilizations and cultures seems like a gamey thing to do.
     
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Indeed :shake: And we all know that this will only lead to trolling and cheap nationalism :(

    Well, a sort of mathematical approach: (i mean the best traits of each civ, obviously)

    China: Fibonacci series spiral, always tending to reach perfect characteristics but won't until an infinity passes in its expansion.

    Greece: Golden ratio spiral, appears at the point of infinity, forever, cause it is perfect :D

    ...

    That country which shall not be named: Trivial zeros of the Riemann hypothesis :mischief:
     
  8. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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  9. Beaver79

    Beaver79 Warlord

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    This is the one I was talking about:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal))

    This from a Google search of What's the difference between nominal and real GDP, which doesn't mean a thing to me. Kind of funny how the two numbers are so different.

    The Nominal Gross Domestic Product measures the value of all the goods and services produced expressed in current prices. On the other hand, Real Gross Domestic Product measures the value of all the goods and services produced expressed in the prices of some base year.
     
  10. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Interesting thread idea. I'd have to go with:

    1. Rome: While to a large extent Roman culture was itself influenced by the Greeks, it was Roman expansion that brought both Greek learning and culture to the wider world, and spread another, possibly even more significant idea that fundamentally shaped European history and later expansion outside the continent - Christianity.

    2. Greece. Because it was indeed, if indirectly, the birthplace of Western civilization, and rediscovery of Greek ideas in the Renaissance was crucial to the development of the modern world.

    3. England (Taking England as equivalent to Britain in this context): England was a major European power for centuries, but its global impact was limited until the 19th, when it founded the largest empire the world has yet seen. as a result, it's too early to gauge its impact in many ways - many of its former territories are weak states whose formative years were marked by civil wars and political assassinations, but then in the 18th Century so was the United States. While it's now fashionable to decry Britain's claim to use its empire to improve quality of life for the inhabitants as a facade, partly truthfully, British-style parliamentary democracy is now widespread and originally British values define the Western norm (the British novelist HG Wells was among those who drafted the Declaration of Human Rights); while these values are common to much of Europe, the focus on rights of the individual codifies a long British tradition. Most significantly, Britain's Industrial Revolution was the basis for modern Western society both technologically and in the social stratification with commerce, rather than aristocracy, defining its higher tiers. Britain is still the world's largest maritime trading power and one of the leading members of the European Union; while its modern importance is genuinely significant (though much less so than in the recent past), its international relevance to modern global politics is also artificially inflated by its permanent membership of the UN Security Council, and its status as a nuclear power. Culturally, London has been described as the "global capital of the world"; Heathrow is the busiest airport in Europe, the city is as multicultural as any on the planet, and it's a favoured hub for the "global traveller" class of Westerner.

    Sorry for the long commentary, but I can add a lot on this country as it's my own - I'd intended to rank it lower, but as I wrote the above it seems that third place is fully justified for what was, ultimately, the most successful of Europe's colonial powers.

    4. India: When described by analogy with European powers, China is often compared with the Roman Empire. By the same analogy, India might be Greece - a series of historically feuding, socially and culturally advanced states whose impact on Asia is at least comparable to that of the Greco-Roman world on the West (and rather greater than historically isolationist China's). Indian cultural influence covers a vast area; societies with Indian-derived cultures, religions, and architecture range as far east as Laos and Sulawesi, and as far south as Java. Indian mathematics gave the world the fundamental concept of zero, and India's relevance to the wider world as both a source and transit point for science, philosophical ideas, and trade goods (the world's most important spice, black pepper, was first sourced from India, and for centuries the trade from Indonesia's Spice Islands passed through the country) had a huge impact on the West via Arab intermediaries and as a motive for European exploration and expansion in their own right.

    5. China: China is simply too vast to have had anything but a major impact on the history of its region; China's impact on neighbouring East Asia may be comparable with India's on Southeast Asia. The global impact of gunpowder may be a technological development outweighed only by that of the printing press, which also has Chinese origins.

    6. Babylon: The seven-day week is so hard-coded into global society that it's hard even to think of it as a convention, but the entire basis for modern timekeeping - from the 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour to the 7-day week - are Babylonian concepts. Babylon's status in Civ V as a science power is especially bizarre as the area was the birthplace of legal codes resembling those still found today, thought to be the first that enshrined the concept of a monarch's responsibility towards his citizens - in Civ V terms, it was the cultural powerhouse of its time, originating many of the social policies still in use today.

    7. Arabia: Reasons already stated - although much of Arabian knowledge came to the West via the Moors, and was itself heavily grounded in ancient Greek teachings, it was the Arabs who acted as custodians of and who developed these ideas. A number of developments were of entirely Arab origin, particularly in medicine, and their legacy survives in the large number of Arabic-derived words for scientific concepts in modern English. Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion today, and historically has influenced a large area of Africa, western Asia and Europe, while Baghdad was for several centuries the world's centre of learning.

    8. France: Possibly France should be higher - certainly its impact on European history is unparalleled by any power since Rome. It's the largest country in western Europe and one of the oldest with more or less its current borders, and retains a large part of the former Frankish empire. Long before its cultural 'golden age' France dictated the shape of Europe in one form or another, from originally defeating 9th Century Moorish expansion that could have turned Europe into a Muslim continent to housing or manipulating a series of popes, and with a long record of military dominance on the continent that culminated in the Napoleonic Wars. In the Anglicised world France is seen as Britain's traditional rival, but in reality all European powers with aspirations to 'great power' status have measured themselves against France (the concept of a Great Power was first formalised following the Napoleonic Wars, and the official list has been updated on a number of subsequent occasion. France is the only country to have been in every incarnation of the list). Not for nothing was French long the international language of diplomacy; for a long time in the late 20th Century it restored this historical role as the leading power of the European Community (now the European Union), although this has been challenged by British admission in the 1970s and a newly resurgent, post-unification Germany in the 21st Century. Although a major colonial power, France's influence outside the continent doesn't seem to have been as lasting as Britain's or Spain's, although it's a testament to it that Madagascar was the second country in the world to adopt compulsory primary education (France itself being the first). Modern France has long been the "voice of Europe" in global affairs, and as with the UK it remains relevant through membership of the Security Council and its status as a nuclear power. In very recent times, France was behind the push to invade Libya, favoured tough action on Syria and Iran, and is or has been involved in major peacekeeping operations throughout northern and central Africa - while the UK (except for London) is arguably in slow decline, France appears to be newly resurgent. And don't forget, without France there would be no Civilization - the birthplace of archaeology has done a lot to inspire interest in and develop our understanding of historical cultures, among them many of the ones in the game.

    9. America (i.e. the United States): It's easy to look at the world today and consider America's importance as supreme, but of course we're seeing a particular snapshot in time and most of what we see as 'American' has origins in the European cultures that preceded it; the global influence of English and of democracy, for example, are primarily a legacy of the British empire "kept alive" by America in the 20th Century. But however history remembers the "American Century", it's unlikely that the massive impacts the country has had on the world in a relatively short time (indeed, not much less than the timescale of the British empire's golden age described above) will leave anything but a large legacy. The world is, indeed, buying its blue jeans and listening to its pop music, while American-originated mass production was to the 20th Century what British industrialisation was to the 19th. American involvement in WWII and the subsequent Cold War defined the modern political world, which might have become largely communist if not for American intervention, and American policy still dictates political boundaries and governance in key strategic areas of the world, particularly in the Middle East (and formerly also in Latin America).

    10. Egypt: Egypt's relative importance can be hard to judge, as popular recognition of the country's past, given the survival of so many of its artefacts and monuments, is likely to far outweigh its historical importance (even one of the wonders referred to by the original poster is of Greek construction). Its influence certainly extended far outside the familiar square block of northeastern Africa we see today, even though "lower Egypt"'s borders closely map those of the ancient kingdom, but all of historical Egypt's area of influence has long been Arab.

    11. Spain: Spain is another country with a short golden age whose global influence belies the length of time it survived. Spain is almost single-handedly responsible for the culture of a modern continent, and the reason that Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity to this day. The destruction of the Inca Empire drastically altered the likely development of South American civilization (although visiting Cusco, a city reclaiming its indigenous heritage, I have the sense that had the Inca capital remained Inca on an otherwise Spanish continent, it would probably not have diverged massively from what's there today). In its heyday, Spain was also a very substantial European power, for a couple of centuries even the continent's major domestic power, but the country's fortunes in the 17th Century Thirty Years War set the tone for the next three hundred years, a decline into relative poverty, French occupation, and eventual civil war. The modern country is still among the weakest economies in western Europe, although still one of the world's largest. Spain's influence through the "Latin" countries, and the language's importance throughout the Americas, endures, however.

    12. Germany: Most of "German" history as popularly recognised is the history of the Holy Roman Empire (the "Third Reich" is so named because the HRE was seen as the "First Reich", and the pre-Weimar state founded by Bismarck as the second), which was a very significant European power in its own right; although it fatally splintered during the Renaissance even in this its legacy dictated the development of Europe, as major conflicts like the Thirty Years War were fought over its remains. The modern state, of course, was the focus of two world-defining wars, the first of which resulted in the effective destruction of the remaining European empires and led to conditions in Russia that resulted in a popular revolution, and the second of which consolidated both American and Russian power and set the scene for the second half of the 20th Century. Germany itself came out of both conflicts badly, and took a decade after reunification in the 1990s to really recover, but is now one of the world's leading economies and challenging French dominance of the Eurozone.

    13. Russia: Because we're discussing the influence of civs on the modern world, a major force of the 20th Century can't be neglected. Of course Russia's history is much longer, but the country's own leaders long saw it as playing second fiddle to Europe (a mentality that arguably persists in its current leadership, despite the reality of Russia's modern significance), and Western reform as a key to success (a mentality that does not persist). It was, nevertheless, culturally and technologically on a par with its western counterparts by the 19th Century, being an early adopter of industrialisation, and was critical to the outcome of the Napoleonic Wars (not to mention one of the primary instigators).

    From here on in the choices get trickier, and I'll deal with them in another post as this one's now very long.
     
  11. schlaufuchs

    schlaufuchs La Femme Moderne

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    I wouldn't.
     
  12. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Approximate timeline for these civilizations (I only filled in 18 of the 43 so far, you can download the PNG file and fill in the rest if you want):

    http://postimg.org/image/j1gzvjryj/full/

    Spoiler :

    As you can see, the Zulu civilization existed during just one century, so I don't think it should be anywhere higher than 40th position.

    Even the Iroquois civilization should be higher than the Zulu, IMO - if we want to be objective.

    I don't see how can the US be considered as more important than China, considering that China is the oldest surviving civilization on Earth (and was entirely occupied by a foreign power only once - for less than 100 years by the Mongol Empire). It doesn't mean that China has to be 1st in the ranking, but continuous influence on the development of the world for the last 4000 years does account for something (even if in some periods this influence was weak).

    On the other hand, the USA exists only for less than 300 years so far, and is essentially a child of European civilizations.

    China founded itself, unlike most of other civilizations (for example Carthage was founded by Phoenicia, Venice by Byzantines, the US by England, etc.).

    PS:

    In this chart above, I count Scotland, Wales and Ireland as Celts, but not England of course (England starts with Anglo-Saxon kingdoms).
     
  13. Genghis Khaiser

    Genghis Khaiser Prince

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    Genghis Khaiser here.

    I made this thread with the intention of it having some controversy, so for me it is okay if you debate and disagree, but please do not heat the argument.

    I have changed my opinion about the positions I gave to China and Egypt, they should be in a higher place, and also about the USA, which should be few places below.
    About Korea, I know Gangnam Style is not an important contribution from Korea, just put it as an example of South Korea's economical/cultural power, although Koreans have more important stuff (Geobukseons For The Win).

    By the way, stop using bad language and quoting it, we are receiving too many moderator actions.
     
  14. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    I seem to have given the ancient civs with few surviving remnants, or limited global expansion, a fairly raw deal - more of these should probably have been in my top few. However:

    13. Assyria: I'll try to rectify the modern bias a bit. As an ancient empire, Assyria was one of the most extensive and influential - on reflection it should probably come above Egypt. Today it's probably best-known for a tale dating back to Sumer, the Epic of Gilgamesh; the first known copy was found in the remains of the Royal Library of Nineveh, itself a likely inspiration through legend for the later Library of Alexandria.

    14. Byzantium: Byzantium did indeed outlast the Roman empire for centuries; for much of that time it was weak and seen as a relic of the old order, but it was still a bastion of Christianity and the impetus for several Crusades, and its form of Christianity survives today. Possibly its greatest significance comes from its place as a buffer against invaders like the Sejluks and from its eventual collapse, or more specifically the identity of the culture that replaced it.

    15. Mongolia: Much of the lasting Mongol legacy can be considered Chinese (as the Mughals can be considered Indian), but while today the majority of traditional Mongol territory is sparsely-populated and of limited geopolitical relevance, the area itself is vast and groups like the Mughals, who traced their origins to earlier Mongols, had substantial effects in their own right.

    16. Portugal: Even during the height of its empire, Portugal was never considered a major power on the European stage; in Britain we like to think that we're the small nation punching above its weight on the imperial stage, but Britain is a gigantic island (the 9th largest in the world) on a small continent and England, while waxing and waning, has always had its place as a major power in Europe. That Portugal, a minor former outpost of Moorish Iberia, was the first European power to venture far outside the continent by sea, is a much more astonishing achievement, and was considered so at the time. The caravel, the symbol of the Age of Discovery, is a Portuguese design. Both contemporary and later commentators have given very negative impressions of Portuguese colonialism; without Portugal there might have been no international slave trade, active Portuguese interference is blamed for the collapse of the Kingdom of Kongo and the ultimate cause of civil strife that persists in parts of the DRC, and until recently in Angola, and few 19th Century British observers missed an opportunity to contrast their (and in some cases, like Wallace's, the Dutch) colonial enterprises with the zealotry and barbarism of the Portuguese and Spanish. But without Portugal they probably wouldn't have been in those parts of the world themselves. Portugal's legacy only persists today in Brazil (for the Portuguese themselves in their heyday, an area of less importance than Mozambique and the other African territories), but they set the stage for European colonialism.

    17. The Ottomans: As Morocco is designed to represent mainly the 17th and 18th Century state - and, as the game's only Berber representatives, the Moors only by association - the Ottomans are indeed the most important Islamic power after Arabia. As well as being a powerful, wealthy and long-lived power - and a significant player in the early stages of European colonialism, which was inspired in part by a need to break the Ottoman monopoly on trade with the East - its terminal decline was one of the complex of factors that led to a series of wars involving the Western powers, the most significant of which were the Crimean War and World War I.

    18. Persia: Persia's place is long overdue, but again hard to gauge. Persia has had many incarnations and is one of the oldest surviving civilizations in the world (as reflected in Civ V, which gives it a medieval UB). In ancient times it was responsible for the destruction of Babylon, and has long shaped regional politics - early in the 19th Century, the Persian defeat of the Maratha prevented what may have become the first fully unified Indian state. Persia's story is of course not over - Iran (the inhabitants' own name for the country since the 2nd Century BC) is now the major power in its region once again. Much of ancient Greek historical development is a consequence of rivalry with Persia, including Alexander's imperial ambition (which began as a campaign to destroy Persia).

    19. The Netherlands: A late and like Portugal unexpected arrival on the European colonial scene, but along with Britain one of the major European empires of the 19th Century, and with Portugal a formative influence on immediately post-Sengoku Japan.

    20. Ethiopia. The oldest indigenous African kingdom, and an earlier focus for European exploration as a fellow Christian state (at one point identified with the mythical Prester John). Modern Ethiopia is ultimately the successor to the Kingdom of Axum, one of the greatest of the classical-era empires, and a founder member of the United Nations.

    21. Carthage: rated as low as they are simply because, aside from the Punic Wars, I know very little about Carthage and its wider impacts. As with Egypt, the territory is no longer culturally connected to the Carthaginian people, making their lasting influence in the region difficult to interpret.

    22. The Maya: I've had no neotropical civs yet, so here goes. Very recent excavations suggest that a form of city planning characteristic of Middle America, with pyramids set around a central plaza, may in fact have originated with the Maya rather than the Olmec as once thought. The Maya were the longest-lived civilization in the Americas, and while the continents' isolation and their own restricted area in the Yucatan Peninsula mean that the Maya had very limited global influence, both their monumental architecture and their religion inspired later societies in the region.

    23. Denmark (taken here to equate to "Vikings"): if influence was defined by pop culture recognition, the Vikings would be in the top 10 if not the top 5. Their genuine influence was substantial, but geographically limited (the founders of Russia were from what is now Sweden, and while obviously culturally related were not noted for longships and pillaging). Danes explored and colonised a wide area of northern Europe, and through their derivatives the Normans extended their range further still. Given later developments, their most important acquisition was Britain - with the Danelaw established in most of the island, Norse occupation of Ireland, and a secondary Norse (albeit by that point culturally French) invasion of England by the Normans, Britain still has a significant Viking legacy; in English the days of the week are still mostly named for Norse deities (although likely via the earlier Germanic invasions rather than the Norse).

    24. The Inca: Short-lived and quarrelsome, like the Aztecs the Inca were destroyed by the Spanish with help from local malcontents and, in the Inca case, the fact that the empire was already weakened - perhaps fatally so even without European intervention - by civil war. All that can really be used to gauge the relevance of the Inca is their huge territorial extent; the culture itself was not dissimilar to any of the other, more localised mountain kingdoms that had preceded it, with even its famous brickwork having been developed by precursor societies. There is certainly no doubt that for scale alone the Inca system of urban planning was unprecedented in the Americas. With almost 50% of the country's population of indigenous descent (including a former president), a resurgence of Andean indigenous pride, and place names largely from Quechua, modern Peru is the closest the Americas have to a successor state of one of the native empires.

    25. Poland: Based on not much more than a vague feeling they should be here somewhere - of all the game's civs, this may be the one I know least about (except Polynesia).

    26. Morocco: and possibly this one - insofar as it represents the Moors, Morocco deserves a far higher placement, however the Civ V design is for a more modern state whose relevance I don't really know enough to gauge.

    27. Japan: Okay, I've resisted it long enough possibly as a reaction against the modern Japanese dominance of internet pop culture (and the electronics industry). The truth is, Japan has a long and proud imperial and military history ... and in terms of its importance to the rest of the world, all of it (except WWII, and an earlier invasion of Korea) pales into insignificance when compared with the global impact of the Sony Walkman in the 1980s. Japan remained a feudal society longer than almost anywhere else in Asia; its language and religion are derived from China, and its modern technology from its contact with America in the 19th Century (having adopted little except guns from earlier European contact).

    28. Indonesia: I'm a particular fan of Southeast Asian history, and actively agitated for Indonesia's inclusion in the game. Simply because their territory was so large the historical Indonesian states were significant, but it's not clear that they had much of an influence outside this region. The Spice Islands exported their produce to Europe via India, and were outside the practical limits of the largest pre-Dutch Indonesian empire, the Javanese Majapahit. As a modern territory I like to describe Indonesia as the most important country in the world that no one ever hears about - the fourth largest population, the largest Islamic nation, a major Cold War ally of the West (and regional antagonist for Australia), and a founder member of nearly every Southeast Asian charter organisation. And yet, while everyone's heard of it and if nothing else know about its coffee, in the West it receives remarkably little attention.

    29. Venice: The last of the European nations of any particular importance, as both Austria and Sweden had rather short periods of dominance, and those regional powers in a globalised world. It was a major medieval naval power; its unsuccessful efforts, in alliance with the Ottomans, to disrupt Portuguese expansion and protect its monopoly were its last actions of significance.

    30. The Celts: This far down the list because they're nearly impossible to define - if taken as a surrogate for the Scottish and Irish, they deserve a somewhat higher placement due to the influence not of these countries but of particular individuals from them and their ideas - David Hume, Adam Smith, television, the telephone. Instead treated as an amalgam of prehistoric and classical northern European tribal cultures, they're notable for artefacts and stone circles, but the precise inability to define anything culturally 'Celtic' (except by a modern definition of the term that refers to largely Norse-influenced cultures) suggests their lasting impact wasn't particularly great.

    31. Austria: Time to deal with the remaining Europeans. Austria isn't much more than the largest bit of the Holy Roman Empire outside Germany, but as has been noted it has significant cultural figures to its name (not to mention strudel), including a number of its Hapsburg rulers and, yes, Mozart. Vienna has been a European cultural centre for centuries.

    32. Songhai: Another empire given its place by virtue of territorial extent, with economic achievements to its name and, under Askia, a drive to modernise along European lines. Sadly it is also one of those cultures whose legacy was essentially erased by European colonialism.

    33. Brazil: I hate to say it, as a longtime proponent of "Brazil isn't a civ", but there isn't really anyone left that deserves a place above it. Brazil did have an empire, and has a much larger (land) area than any of the remaining civs. Just as fusion power is 50 years away and always will be, Brazil is an "emerging power" a decade away from being a world power ... and always will be. It's been emerging for so long now (and is part of a 'BRIC' club all of whose other members are much closer to fulfilling their expected promise) that it's a bit of a joke, and Brazil's serious economic downturn in the global recession is in stark contrast to the growth in India and China; if it ever should have been in Civ, it was in Civ IV when the country was genuinely doing well.

    34. Siam: While, as noted, I'm a fan of Southeast Asian history, this in itself tells me that (much as I love the civ in game terms) it doesn't really belong. The struggle to find a unique unit other than 'Naruesan's Elephant' is a bit of a warning sign. Plus, the Siam of the game itself is not the precursor of modern Thailand, but the Sukothai Kingdom the Thais (who emerged in southern Thailand and overthrew the declining Khmer there) conquered. Thailand doesn't figure much in the histories of neighbouring countries (at least in Indochina); its main claim to historical fame is being the only Southeast Asian nation to remain independent during the colonial period.

    35. Sweden: An important European power during the Thirty Years War, and not much beyond it - although, as mentioned, it is notable for several people, and in pop culture for Abba and Ikea.

    36. Korea: Not an especially large or ever influential society, but it was a sophisticated and developed culture in its own right, which counts for something when most of the remaining civs are tribal.

    37. I commend the original poster for a well-balanced approach to the Aztecs who, like the Zulu, made it into Civ based on popular recognition and a need for one representative of that particular geography, and somehow never left. And like the Zulu (who were prioritised over Ethiopia), the Aztecs made it in on celebrity status in place of a better option (the Maya, who weren't popularised until somewhat later). Short-lived, locally despised by their subject tribes, geographically limited, and with little tradition of monumental architecture, the Aztecs are an odd fit for Civilization and always have been.

    38. The Iroquois: Political correctness demands North American tribes, and of the available options the Iroquois are the closest to a 'civilization' that we know anything about. They may be something of a European invention; the confederacy system emerged following European contact, but was probably a mix of European concepts of social organisation and traditional tribal practices for negotiating agreements rather than either fully European or fully indigenous; and the Iroquois are known mainly for their roles in European conflicts in the Americas.

    39. The Zulu: Though essentially tribal, the Zulu did have organised settlements (if not exactly cities), and they were a major influence on the development of British policy in southern Africa. At this point we're pretty much down to distinguishing between tribal societies based on their charisma, and the Zulu definitely win on that score.

    40. The Huns: Yep, Attila has charisma as well. If Civ had some way of representing a barbarian 'nation' that launched a coordinated invasion (something more detailed than Civ IV's stack of barbarian random events) and could be negotiated with, but not played, the Huns would be ideal - Total War did something similar with the Mongols. As a civ they don't fit.

    41. Polynesia: Yes, a very widespread people, but also very isolated and not a coherent single culture. Although Hawaii did develop a kingdom, this was following European contact and I'm not aware of indigenous communities with an advanced level of social organisation; as urbanisation is the single key criterion of Civ, a game based around cities, all of these tribal cultures are a poor fit.

    42. The Shoshone: the stated intent of the civ is interesting, as a 'nice guy whose land you invade' moral dilemma, but as with the Huns this is something more suited to some kind of non-player challenge mechanic, not a playable civ.

    Only 42 - who have I missed?
     
  15. Beaver79

    Beaver79 Warlord

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    Some of man's greatest accomplishments have come via the US. Winning the space race by putting someone on the moon, a robot on Mars, inventing flight, and inventing the nuclear bomb.

    China has been around for a long time, so what? So has Japan and they were an isolation country for a long time. I wouldn't rate the Japanese high at all as far as historical significance goes.
     
  16. Wrymouth3

    Wrymouth3 Emperor

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    To all the people in the Civ forums, please use a different measure than the formula you are using.
     
  17. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Your feeling is perhaps correct regarding the position of Poland.

    But I'm surprised about lack of knowledge about Poland (even after all my "polandish" posts on this forum :mischief:).

    Regarding Polynesia - they were, basically, Vikings of the Pacific Ocean.

    And I think their achievements were actually great, even thought they were unheard-of in most parts of the world - they colonized the entire Pacific Ocean in times when vast majority of Europeans were still afraid to sail more than ~100 km away from the nearest landmass. And when one realizes, that Polynesians did all of that using something which was more similar to boats than actual ships, one must admire their bravery and their drive to explore the unknown.

    Man's greatest ever accomplishment was coming down from the tree and setting a foot on African savanna. :groucho:

    Inventions such as fire, wheel and agriculture were also very important. As well as numbers, writing, paper, iron, etc.

    That would be the Moon race, not the space race. The space race was won by the USSR (see Yuri Gagarin).

    This goes to France: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_(aircraft)

    "The first recorded manned flight was made in a hot air balloon built by the Montgolfier brothers on 21 November 1783."

    Several generations and hundreds of scientists had to work for this bomb.

    Only by chance it was first constructed in the US (and not necessarily by American scientists - at least not only American ones).

    And it not only "has been around", but also contributed with a hell of a lot of important inventions and ideas.

    Even if those inventions were not always directly spread by Chinese people.

    For example many Chinese inventions came to Europe by the agency of the Indians, Arabs and Mongols.
     
  18. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    No.

    "Controlled, sustained, powered, human heavier-than-air flight," i.e., the modern concept of flight, is quite obviously implicit. If you want to be a pedant, may as well give it to Brother Eilmer.

    :rolleyes:
     
  19. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    First of all, the space race has not ended yet.

    Unless, of course, anyone has already step a foot on another Earth-like planet ???

    AFAIK, noone did.

    When it comes to exploration of the universe, sending a robot on Mars is like throwing a rock into a nearby sandbox by a child. :)

    Claiming that the US has won the space race is like claiming that marathon winner is the one who is leading after first 10 meters of distance. :lol:
     
  20. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    By all means, continue inventing your own definitions for a historical period which has well-established start and end dates as if your opinion is authoritative fact.
     

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