How would you rate Germany?
- Thread starter EverNoob
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Dark_Jedi06
"Deus ex Machina."
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First of all, Bismarck needs to get his pickelhaube back.
Second, while I dislike the UA, I love Landsknechts and Panzers. With the constrictions on production, especially during the early game, an endless army of 'Sknechts is a boatload of fun.
Second, while I dislike the UA, I love Landsknechts and Panzers. With the constrictions on production, especially during the early game, an endless army of 'Sknechts is a boatload of fun.
alpaca
King of Ungulates
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I don't like them (which is not an opinion about their power level). Their ability means you have to go all-out at the start of the game or waste it: It kind of forces you into a warrior or swords rush. This is badly designed in my opinion.
As for their power level: It depends. If you get the rush to work, they are good. If you don't, they are crap. The landsknechts seem pretty good until you realize that spamming units isn't so great in Civ5 because of the high upkeep, after you see that they are still o.k. but nothing great. In total contrast to the OP I hate late UU because the game is almost always either won or lost by that time, unless you play with advanced start. Their UU also has the very weak tanks as base.
As for their power level: It depends. If you get the rush to work, they are good. If you don't, they are crap. The landsknechts seem pretty good until you realize that spamming units isn't so great in Civ5 because of the high upkeep, after you see that they are still o.k. but nothing great. In total contrast to the OP I hate late UU because the game is almost always either won or lost by that time, unless you play with advanced start. Their UU also has the very weak tanks as base.
I think their bonuses are useless and should increase perhaps every era. Barbarians are great to have if you wanna rush the beginning, but when did Germany really make its mark in the world. Yeah... industrial era bonuses are needed.
EverNoob
Prince
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You're not necessarily forced to go all out at the beginning. There's 2 ways to play germany early game:
1. civil service "bulb" with furor tectonicus taking a backseat.
2. take honor tree and seek out barb encampments and longswordman rush.
#1 is basically a builder start, you could maybe take a couple border cities with Landsknechts and secure them, but it's certainly not conducive extended war. But it lets you ignore the metal techs for a long time since Landsknechts can defend your empire until Knights/Crossbows.
#2 requires alot of open land like pangaea to be really effective. Converting barbs is more than just about gaining an extra unit, it also allows to immediatly go after other encampments with the converted unit. Otherwise your units would need to spend time healing each time.
1. civil service "bulb" with furor tectonicus taking a backseat.
2. take honor tree and seek out barb encampments and longswordman rush.
#1 is basically a builder start, you could maybe take a couple border cities with Landsknechts and secure them, but it's certainly not conducive extended war. But it lets you ignore the metal techs for a long time since Landsknechts can defend your empire until Knights/Crossbows.
#2 requires alot of open land like pangaea to be really effective. Converting barbs is more than just about gaining an extra unit, it also allows to immediatly go after other encampments with the converted unit. Otherwise your units would need to spend time healing each time.
Well, honestly I didn't think about the units being that strong for that long of a time. However, that still means that the bonus you are getting only allows you to be able to convert those barbarians that you kill to units and upgrade them. That is all well and good, but you have to pay for them. Personally, I look to other Civs for a more stable nation. Such as using the Alexander to help keep my happiness up or something like that.
alpaca
King of Ungulates
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Yeah, so I can choose to either ignore the UU or the UA? Great news, sounds like fun 
On a more serious note, going for the Landsknechts is a lot weaker. They aren't much stronger than Greek Hoplites at any rate but arrive at a much later date. Swordsmen are stronger than Landsknechts and you can upgrade your warriors into them without any production cost.
On a more serious note, going for the Landsknechts is a lot weaker. They aren't much stronger than Greek Hoplites at any rate but arrive at a much later date. Swordsmen are stronger than Landsknechts and you can upgrade your warriors into them without any production cost.
EverNoob
Prince
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Yeah, so I can choose to either ignore the UU or the UA? Great news, sounds like fun
On a more serious note, going for the Landsknechts is a lot weaker. They aren't much stronger than Greek Hoplites at any rate but arrive at a much later date. Swordsmen are stronger than Landsknechts and you can upgrade your warriors into them without any production cost.
It's true that fun is a matter of personal taste
Am I the only one that feels Landsknechts need an abbreviation? I suggest LK.
You can't compare swords vs LK like that because when going for civil service you're meant to ignore the metal techs and go builder. Warriors upgrade to swordsmen...except that you shouldn't even reseach Iron working. I tend to wait for barbs to get spearmen/archers when i'm going LK.
alpaca
King of Ungulates
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It's true that fun is a matter of personal taste
Am I the only one that feels Landsknechts need an abbreviation? I suggest LK.
You can't compare swords vs LK like that because when going for civil service you're meant to ignore the metal techs and go builder. Warriors upgrade to swordsmen...except that you shouldn't even reseach Iron working. I tend to wait for barbs to get spearmen/archers when i'm going LK.
Ok so you're saying you should go all peace-on-earth-like and only use the UU for defensive purposes, thus wasting both the advantages Germany has over a hypothetical vanilla civ?
I know I'm being a bit difficult, and I totally agree you can have fun when playing Germany, but that doesn't make them a strong or even average faction unless you utilize their UA for a rush. However, Greece is also only strong because you can use the CC for a very overpowered rush, so nothing new there. To be honest, I'm not very fond of strong early UU or UA because they further degenerate the gameplay to a situation where you beat everything early-game and the rest is just playing things out.
Creepy Old Man
Warlord
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My impression is that the AI is easily intimidated by large numbers of crappy units. I've played Germany a couple times where I've been massively behind, technologically. But my swarm of Landsknicts have been sufficient to stop hostile AIs with riflemen from declaring war.
As for the UA, it depends upon your map size, shape, and speed, as pointed out above. I typically play large epic pangaeas, and I can easily convert a dozen units in a game.
As for tanks? The game's over by then. Sorry, total waste of a UU.
As for the UA, it depends upon your map size, shape, and speed, as pointed out above. I typically play large epic pangaeas, and I can easily convert a dozen units in a game.
As for tanks? The game's over by then. Sorry, total waste of a UU.
Nunya
Warlord
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I'd say that on average they are average. But in specific games they can range from overkill (if you farmed a lot of barbarians) to lame (if you didn't).
I dislike the random element so I modded them to have the Blitzkrieg ability which gives a free Blitz promotion to all melee and armor units.
I dislike the random element so I modded them to have the Blitzkrieg ability which gives a free Blitz promotion to all melee and armor units.
This UU is insane.. Sure It's only 10 attack but it kills cavalry and its only slightly more expensive than a warrior. The problem is cost upgrades are so cheap, so most people build warriors and pay for swords so you don't really maximize the production bonus.
The other issue is that Civil Service is in an awkward portion of the tree if you want to coordinate with the barb ability.
The other issue is that Civil Service is in an awkward portion of the tree if you want to coordinate with the barb ability.
KingMorgan
Deity
Germany seems like a low level playaround civ. I'd agree with the comments already made and place Bismark firmly in the average list, more average than Sillyman.
avl8
Prince
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Well, panzers gets some love on advanced starts. That one plus UA makes Germany a viable choice for MP.
Plus their UA will lead to a quite unbalanced warrior/brute rush if you get some luck with barbs. They yell "by the numbers, boys", just like marines in SC2
In solo-games their UA cries the same which is nice but has its own hindrances on immortal and deity.
LKs (great abbreviature!) looks like nice defenders for a teching strategies. You'll have to get civil service for a slingshot or its huge bonus instead of wasting beakons into lower techpath.
And Im sure their low production cost means lower gold cost if you rush buy them. Thats cute emergency button when your getting your early libraries/settlers/universities.
P.S. Woot, imagine that while your getting a nice slingshot or settling cities like crazy with ICS, your starting warrior brings some extra guys to defend the lines. Instead of rushbuying them or producing them instead of important colliseums/libraries! Is it cute?
Plus their UA will lead to a quite unbalanced warrior/brute rush if you get some luck with barbs. They yell "by the numbers, boys", just like marines in SC2
In solo-games their UA cries the same which is nice but has its own hindrances on immortal and deity.
LKs (great abbreviature!) looks like nice defenders for a teching strategies. You'll have to get civil service for a slingshot or its huge bonus instead of wasting beakons into lower techpath.
And Im sure their low production cost means lower gold cost if you rush buy them. Thats cute emergency button when your getting your early libraries/settlers/universities.
P.S. Woot, imagine that while your getting a nice slingshot or settling cities like crazy with ICS, your starting warrior brings some extra guys to defend the lines. Instead of rushbuying them or producing them instead of important colliseums/libraries! Is it cute?
JimT
Warlord
AI is just easily intimindated. I have had one warrior and a tech lead/gold reserves sufficient enough to prevent Augustus declaring war with his infantry.
On topic, Germany are weak at the moment
- Special Ability can only be used effectively within one style of play. I don't think you need Pangaea as it plays well to Archipeligo (where settlements spring up everywhere) or Continents/Earth once you have cleared your rivals. On Earth I often find South America is unsettled on smaller maps. Still as another post said this is of minimal use compared to some traits
- LK are a reasonable replacement for pikes but then I don't use Pikes, as I'm the agressor with the cavalry.
- Panzers are a reasonable replacement for tanks but then in late wars I rely on artillery/ mech inf. A late war normally means I'm going for a relatively peaceful victory.
If they sort out the AI then the units usefulness as a counter may increase. Or if puppets were nerfed there may be some more empty space for barbarians to spawn.
In my opinion, there are 2 problems with Germany, and both are actually extrinsic to the civ itself. Those problems are:
1) Furor Teutonicus can be a huge help in early games, since up to Emperor difficulty on continents or Pangaea you can get a pretty monstrous army (3 games on those settings and each time I've probably scored myself 3-4 brutes, 2-3 archers, and 5ish spears) without actually building more than a warrior or two. This allows you to steamroll without sacrificing settlers/workers/buildings, and often the momentum you'll build up by clearing camps as you conquer can sustain you all by itself.
Problem: at Immortal and Deity, the AI settles so quickly there are never more than a few barbs. So your UA is "might get an extra warrior or two."
2) The bonus Panzers get may not seem like much, but the one extra move actually yields pretty damn decent returns when you factor in that on rough terrain they get +50% movement over tanks (3 moves to 2), that with blitz they can get another attack (or one more attack before you have to use their movement to retreat), and that with move-after-attack they can really keep themselves safe from counterattack.
Problem: tanks suck.
So yeah. If the game rules were balanced out somewhat, Germany would be a lot better than it is. As it stands, circumstances relegate them to pretty "meh" territory.
P.S. Totally agree that Germany's bonuses should be tooled to Industrial era more than everything but Industrial era.
1) Furor Teutonicus can be a huge help in early games, since up to Emperor difficulty on continents or Pangaea you can get a pretty monstrous army (3 games on those settings and each time I've probably scored myself 3-4 brutes, 2-3 archers, and 5ish spears) without actually building more than a warrior or two. This allows you to steamroll without sacrificing settlers/workers/buildings, and often the momentum you'll build up by clearing camps as you conquer can sustain you all by itself.
Problem: at Immortal and Deity, the AI settles so quickly there are never more than a few barbs. So your UA is "might get an extra warrior or two."
2) The bonus Panzers get may not seem like much, but the one extra move actually yields pretty damn decent returns when you factor in that on rough terrain they get +50% movement over tanks (3 moves to 2), that with blitz they can get another attack (or one more attack before you have to use their movement to retreat), and that with move-after-attack they can really keep themselves safe from counterattack.
Problem: tanks suck.
So yeah. If the game rules were balanced out somewhat, Germany would be a lot better than it is. As it stands, circumstances relegate them to pretty "meh" territory.
P.S. Totally agree that Germany's bonuses should be tooled to Industrial era more than everything but Industrial era.
